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Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ElViajero on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:25PM (#27542768)
> "The war on drugs was an absolute miscalculation of human behavior," said Kassandra Frederique, who heads the Drug Policy Alliance, a national group that advocates for total drug decriminalization.

For me it would be incredibly interesting to know how much it was a miscalculation or actually it was very well calculated.

The "War on Drugs" have failed to make USA safer, healthier or any other positive metric.

But, it has provided many with an excuse to pass restrictive laws, to win elections, to gain contracts with the government.

I am sure that many believed, even believe today in the "War on Drugs". But, it would be very interesting to know the reasoning to start it. And how much the people that started it failed to understand human behavior, or it is just that their goals had nothing to do fight drugs problems.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by bgroins on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:32PM (#27542847)
The reasoning is well established at this point. It was started by the Nixon administration to reduce the amount of left and left-leaning voters, particularly black Americans.

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." — John Ehrlichman, to Dan Baum for Harper's Magazine in 1994, about President Richard Nixon's war on drugs, declared in 1971.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by pmoriarty on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:07PM (#27543277)
I'm about as anti War on Drugs as it's possible to get, but agree with those who consider that quote to be highly suspect.

Ehrlichman supposedly said it in a private interview with Baum, and there was no public record of it for 22 years after it was said, and 17 years after Ehrlichman died.

It's very rare to hear such mea culpas from powerful, politically adept figures that cast their subjects in such a negative light. When they speak of their actions at all they tend to talk of them with plenty of room for interpretation and plausible deniability -- especially if they're lawyers, as Ehrlichman was.

So as much as I believe that the War on Drugs was in fact in great part a racist war and one greatly based on suppression of dissent and the 60's and 70's counterculture, I very much doubt that Ehrlichman ever confessed.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by howenterprisey on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:30PM (#27543587)
Ok, what about this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Ehrlichman#San_Franc....

> NIXON: [...] Let's look at the strong societies. The Russians. Goddamn, they root 'em out. They don't let 'em around at all. I don't know what they do with them. Look at this country. You think the Russians allow dope? Homosexuality, dope, immorality, are the enemies of strong societies. That's why the Communists and left-wingers are clinging to one another. They're trying to destroy us. I know Moynihan will disagree with this, [Attorney General John] Mitchell will, and Garment will. But, goddamn, we have to stand up to this.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by thaumasiotes on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:37PM (#27543666)
That quote doesn't really support the idea that "We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities." Instead, it supports the idea that Nixon thought drugs undermined society and stamping out drug use was valuable for its own sake.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by howenterprisey on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:39PM (#27543699)
Yes. It's roughly as indefensible, though.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by dylan604 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:46PM (#27543787)
>"Homosexuality, dope, immorality, are the enemies of strong societies."

Is it really though? It seems like it would be the enemy of an uptight conservative society that only speaks of freedoms from the side of their mouth while limiting the freedoms to only those things which they agree.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by aurelius83 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:19PM (#27543424)
There is literally no proof that John Ehrlichman said this to Dan Baum in 1994 and when Dan Baum made this statement John Ehrlichman was already dead and could not refute it. Note that his estate has denied this statement.

It also is not accurate that the Nixon administration increased incarceration of drug use. That occurred under Reagan and Clinton.

However, Nixon was the first president to coin the term "war on drugs" but this was a rhetorical flourish. The Nixon Administration repealed the federal 2–10-year mandatory minimum sentences for possession of marijuana and started federal demand reduction programs and drug-treatment programs.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ElViajero on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:40PM (#27542946)
> It was started by the Nixon administration to reduce the amount of left and left-leaning voters, particularly black Americans.

That is interesting information, thank you for commenting.

It shows that there was not a misinterpretation, as the article suggests, at least, not the initiators of the "War", but more of a well-calculated hidden agenda that had nothing to do with "drugs".

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by lpa22 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:53PM (#27543119)
This documentary is an absolute must-watch and shows how devastating the war on drugs is and was from a race perspective https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krfcq5pF8u8
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by mathattack on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:45PM (#27543016)
Perhaps some instigators had ulterior motives, but many who jumped on were part of the grand miscalculation. Though perhaps they should have looked at Prohibition for guidance too.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by coopsmoss on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:48PM (#27543068)
I still find it abhorrent that incarcerated people can't vote in the US. That seems so obviously exploitable.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by karaterobot on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:06PM (#27543258)
As with so many generalizations about the U.S., it's more complicated than that, and varies on a state-by-state basis.

Most people in jail retain the right to vote, regardless of state.

People currently in prison on felony charges CANNOT vote in most states, but this is up to each state. In many states, you get your enfranchisement restored after completing your sentence.

https://www.thoughtco.com/where-felons-can-and-cannot-vote-3...

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by tyingq on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:57PM (#27543895)
>Most people in jail retain the right to vote, regardless of state.

They may have the right to vote. Whether the facility lets it actually happen is another matter.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by whakim on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:55PM (#27543142)
Not only this, but in many cases felons permanently lose their right to vote, even after they serve their sentence.

Edit: I stand corrected, this is true in some states but not others.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by drdavid on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:32PM (#27543608)
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by whakim on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:47PM (#27543800)
I stand corrected. Thanks for this.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by drdavid on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:08PM (#27544005)
I used to think the same thing, until I read an article that made me look into it. The article I read was a local affair that pointed out that inmates are encouraged (in my state, Maine) to file absentee ballots in the town they lived in prior to incarceration.

There are just a couple of states that allow that, but I learned that quite a few jurisdictions restore rights after incarceration, after probation, etc...

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by BurningFrog on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:02PM (#27543224)
Voters should select their politicians.

Not the opposite!

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by HumblyTossed on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:07PM (#27543269)
And even when people vote to try and correct it (Florida), the GOP find some other reason to stop it.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by macspoofing on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:23PM (#27543483)
That particular quote always makes the rounds in these kinds of discussions, but the veracity of it is challenged and suspect[1]. I'm inclined to disbelieve it on those grounds and also that it is so politically self-serving that is crosses into the "too good to be true" category.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ehrlichman#Drug_war_quote

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by cowmoo728 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:48PM (#27543804)
Nixon is actually quite removed from the beginning of the War on Drugs. That quote is also of questionable authenticity, so doesn't illustrate the point very well. Reefer Madness, for example, was released in 1936 when Nixon was only 23.

Harry Anslinger was actually one of the most influential figures in the beginning of the modern big-government war on drugs. The anti-marijuana movement was a marriage of convenience between sensationalist yellow journalism from the Hearst empire, and good old-fashioned racism.

"By the tons it is coming into this country — the deadly, dreadful poison that racks and tears not only the body, but the very heart and soul of every human being who once becomes a slave to it in any of its cruel and devastating forms. ... Marihuana is a short cut to the insane asylum. Smoke marihuana cigarettes for a month and what was once your brain will be nothing but a storehouse of horrid specters. Hasheesh makes a murderer who kills for the love of killing out of the mildest mannered man who ever laughed at the idea that any habit could ever get him."

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by Aunche on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:49PM (#27543078)
It's worth noting that Dan Baum didn't publish this quote until 16 years after Ehrilchman had already died.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by IncRnd on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:00PM (#27543918)
He could have peddled that quote sooner if he had used the line they use nowadays, "according to a source familiar with the matter..."
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by Falling3 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:08PM (#27543285)
Thanks - I was wondering why I remembered that information coming to light so much more recently.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:34PM (#27542875)
Whether or not it was Nixon and friends acting like racists is secondary. Tons of individuals and institutions piled on because there was power and money in it for them.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by uberdru on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:40PM (#27542964)
My read is that your statement is incorrect, in that they were not simply 'acting like racists'. Instead, they were instituting racially motivated policies to combat the advances of the civil rights movement through the '60s. Plus ca change.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:43PM (#27542996)
Isn't that exactly how you'd expect racists to act?
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by tolbish on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:47PM (#27543045)
The difference is that racism is not a secondary motivator. Racism would be baked into the desire for power, as it would then be a desire to instill white supremacy.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by jhgb on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:02PM (#27543223)
Why couldn't racism be either primary or secondary motivator for something?
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by tolbish on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:51PM (#27544416)
It absolutely can be. It just is not in this case. They were not merely "acting like racists". I hope this distinction helps.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by jhgb on Thursday June 17, 2021 @05:12PM (#27544554)
The present simple "is not" seemed to be a general statement to me (but that just may be my L2 English).
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by nuclearnice1 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:38PM (#27542917)
You can say it’s secondary, but it’s a good answer to the question raised by the parent: “it would be very interesting to know the reasoning to start it.”
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:44PM (#27543007)
Its not an uncommon thing in history either. One of the incarnations of the KKK supported prohibition because it gave them an excuse to persecute catholic irish immigrants.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by foldr on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:02PM (#27543230)
This seems oversimplified. Lots of politically very diverse countries around the world have harsh penalties for possession of heroin.

I don't doubt that the Nixon administration exploited the war on drugs for nefarious ends. However, I think the idea that the entire impetuous behind it was to target particular social groups is bordering on a conspiracy theory. It is a bit like suggesting that Democrats are pro immigration only because immigrants tend to vote Democrat. I'm sure it hasn't escaped the notice of Democratic electoral strategists that the party could stand to benefit from immigration. But it would be implausible to suggest that this is the only reason that Democrats tend to favor a more liberal immigration policy than Republicans.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by x86_64Ubuntu on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:22PM (#27543461)
So having rules and laws designed to leverage the justice system against Black Americans is conspiratorial? That's literally the history of this country, from The Black Codes, to Jim Crow, to the War On Drugs this has been standard operating procedure.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by foldr on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:14PM (#27544055)
Steady on – that's not what I said. I'm sure the Nixon administration exploited the war on drugs for racist ends (just as they exploited many other things for racist ends). That doesn't mean that the sole explanation for the war on drugs is a Nixonian plot.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by neither_color on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:57PM (#27543169)
I don't buy it. That's one administration's decision to capitalize on anti-drug sentiment, but it really is a world-wide phenomenon with many powerful countries not controlled by the US choosing to continue outlawing drugs, like middle eastern countries and China. Most Asian countries still have very harsh penalties for drug possession. If you use an earthquake or a hurricane to engage in some crony capitalism, it doesn't mean you started the earthquake. Likewise, something about drug control means most governments have a stake in perpetuating it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by whakim on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:34PM (#27543634)
China and Middle Eastern countries are one-party states, not peer countries with comparable independent systems of criminal justice. Yes, many drugs are illegal in other peer countries (the UK, France, Canada, etc.). But the percentage of the United States' population incarcerated on drug-related charges alone is higher than the percentage of peer countries' population incarcerated on all charges. So the United States isn't simply outlawing drugs, it is choosing to crack down in a way that peers aren't. As far as the racial element goes, it's hard to separate racism from drug enforcement: the vast majority of those serving prison time on drug related charges are people of color (the percentage is greater in federal prisons than state prisons), even though substance abuse rates are similar across groups.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by randomhodler84 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:22PM (#27543458)
I buy it. It was forced on the world by the UN with the convention of psychotropic substances 1971. Only a handful of nations, now including the US are seeing this as a horrible mistake.

It is, was and always will be a horrible mistake, maybe the worst sociopolitical action in the 20th century. The brutality we have seen as a result of these policies leaves little moral ambiguity.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by neither_color on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:31PM (#27543604)
The argument is that Richard Nixon, a disgraced and impeached president, is conveniently responsible for all of the world's drug control "because racism." That sounds a little too comic book villainy to me. Nixon was such a failure that his successor could've immediately reversed that decision. To say that China is still to this day executing drug dealers because Richard Nixon was racist(which is true, I don't dispute that) is missing the forest for the trees.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by randomhodler84 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:20PM (#27544129)
Nixon was a comic book villain. China executes political prisoners and sells their organs. What China does has no baring on sensible drug policy; quite the opposite.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by damagednoob on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:03PM (#27543236)
Isn't it a convenient excuse for other countries, too? In the same way that 'think of the children' is an argument for more censorship and Big Brother-style laws.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by dlsa on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:40PM (#27542960)
Personally I think it had more to do with corruption than anything. The CIA was happy to profit off it. The anti-drug people loved it, particularly those who were against cannabis. anyone who hated hippies. Anyone working against the antiwar movements. Those against hemp were happy. That's a lot of money just there. Politicians could use it to demonstrate a hard line stance against crime. Or just use it to target particular groups.

Then theres the people lobbying for anti-drug laws to expand the prison population. Lawyers and respective district attorneys that were happy as well.

The drug war was basically a felony printer as well. This made all sorts of social problems including unemployment / housing even more problematic. It tore apart families and still does. Meanwhile other legal drugs (opioids in general) flourished.

Then there's the overdoses / poisonings because the source and distribution networks are utterly motivated to mess with the supply.

The truly stupid aspect is that drug use has not significantly decreased. The whole "war" aspect was a complete failure. So it wasn't a good investment anyway.

So many parallels with prohibition. Government poisoned that supply as well and killed thousands.

Just say no. Indeed.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by livueta on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:48PM (#27543066)
Indeed, "bootleggers and baptists"[1] very much didn't go away with the end of prohibition.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by dfxm12 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:37PM (#27543670)
But, it has provided many with an excuse to pass restrictive laws, to win elections, to gain contracts with the government.

Don't forget: prevent people from voting (https://www.aclu.org/blog/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/ri...), funnel people into for profit prisons (https://www.axios.com/war-drugs-prison-america-e66ffe61-c876...), steal assets from citizens under the guise of civil asset forfeiture (https://drugpolicy.org/issues/asset-forfeiture-reform), all while targeting minorities (https://drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war).

It's clear that this is very well calculated and understood.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by cwkoss on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:20PM (#27543433)
The historical goals of the "War on Drugs" have not been to make the USA safer (though proponents often claim that). The goal has been white supremacy, which is served by giving cops laws that they can enforce based on racial prejudice.

Cannabis was made illegal because it was mostly used by Mexican immigrants. https://www.history.com/news/why-the-u-s-made-marijuana-ille...

Crack was sentenced at a 10x higher rate than cocaine because black citizens disproportionately used crack, while white users disproportionally used cocaine.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by RookyNumbas on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:39PM (#27543697)
The crack vs. cocaine comparison is no good, we should stop using it. Free base is a very different drug than cocaine. An equivalent "white" version of crack would be crystal meth, which has had similar sentencing guidelines to crack.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by cwkoss on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:51PM (#27543834)
I was under the impression that they are pharmacologically identical and main distinction is that crack can be smoked/vaporized and while cocaine is predominantly snorted.

I would be surprised if the harms of smoked crack were worse than the harms of IV cocaine.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by imrelaxed on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:41PM (#27544324)
Based on studies: Under 7% of cocaine abuse is IV. Self reported ratings of high, liking and stimulated are greater after smoking than after IV with similar plasma concentrations.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by imrelaxed on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:07PM (#27543994)
I am all for decriminalizing drug use but let’s not throw around false narratives. Here are the actual reasons for the “war on drugs” straight from the horses mouth: NIXON: [...] Let's look at the strong societies. The Russians. Goddamn, they root 'em out. They don't let 'em around at all. I don't know what they do with them. Look at this country. You think the Russians allow dope? Homosexuality, dope, immorality, are the enemies of strong societies. That's why the Communists and left-wingers are clinging to one another. They're trying to destroy us. I know Moynihan will disagree with this, [Attorney General John] Mitchell will, and Garment will. But, goddamn, we have to stand up to this.

With regards to the differing penalties for crack and cocaine, there are logical (though fundamentally misguided) reasons for it that have nothing to do with race as well. Crack cocaine is designed to be smokable, which makes it far more potent and addictive than regular cocaine . In addition, due to these properties, crack is significantly more correlated to other criminal behaviors than cocaine.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by quantumwannabe on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:29PM (#27544218)
Crack has harsher penalties because black leaders asked for them because it was destroying black communities. An example of such a leader is Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), who is black and was one of the strongest anti-drug representatives. From his wiki page:

>In 1983, Rangel became chair of the Select Committee on Narcotics, which solidified his position as a leading strategist on this perennially important issue to him Rangel kept the committee going, in the face of the usual pressure to disband special committees. He battled against proposed cutbacks in the federal anti-drug budget, and advocated increased grants to states and cities for better shelters for the homeless. Rangel's amendments providing increased funding for state and local law enforcement were included in the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986. He traveled to countries in Central and South America and elsewhere to inspect the sources of drugs and the law enforcement efforts against them; Ebony magazine termed Rangel "a front-line general in the war against drugs." Rangel said "We need outrage!", making reference to the slow reaction by both government and religious leaders to the epidemics of crack cocaine, heroin, PCP, and other drugs that hit American streets during the 1980s. He believed that legalizing drugs would represent "moral and political suicide". Nor did he refrain from criticizing those most affected by drugs, saying that Hispanic and black teenagers had no sense of self-preservation, and that drug dealers were so stupid that they had to eat in fast-food places because they could not read a menu. By 1988, Rangel was saying that President Ronald Reagan had not done enough in the war on drugs, but that First Lady Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign had been quite valuable. The narcotics committee itself was termed possibly the most important select committee of its time. The Washington Post said Rangel was "in a powerful position to shape policy on an issue at the top of the nation's agenda". He would remain as chair of the committee through 1993, when it was abolished along with other House select committees.

Rangel is far from the only black leader at the time who wanted harsh penalties for drugs. So while it is true that crack has harsher penalties that other drugs because black people use it, it isn't true that those penalties are because of racist white people. It was destroying black communities, and black leaders wanted a fix, and they thought harsh penalties would work.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by snomad on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:43PM (#27542998)
If you haven't heard of him before, you may want to read up on Harry J. Anslinger[0]. Joe Rogan also has a really in depth episode on him. He was deputy commissioner of the federal department that oversaw prohibition. when that ended, he went on to narcotics enforcement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by K0balt on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:46PM (#27543784)
OTOH, the war on drugs has made an incredibly powerful covert foreign policy tool, in terms of being able to arbitrarily restrict or provide funding, as well as using martial force to control the right to manufacture and distribute illicit substances. None of this would work unless drugs were incredibly profitable… and they aren’t incredibly profitable without strongly enforced artificial scarcity.

Simply by turning a blind eye to one group and continuing aggressive enforcement against another the USA can tilt the political balance of power in many smaller nations.

When you create a default state of War against most of the world, selective peace becomes your most powerful weapon. Destruction is so much cheaper than building value, it creates a wildly disproportionate incentive to cooperate.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by tempodox on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:17PM (#27543402)
It also creates an unholy amount of bullshit jobs in law enforcement and the prison industry. Can't lose those voters.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ineptech on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:41PM (#27543727)
A great deal of the credit/blame for the modern drug war goes to Harry Anslinger[0]. Imagine being the nation's top enforcer of Prohibition - what do you do when it's repealed? Just close up shop, fire everyone, and turn the lights off before you lock the door?

This is a somewhat partisan issue and I'm far from unbiased, but reading his wiki page will convey most of the story better than a screed.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by dfraser992 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:06PM (#27543257)
"Drug Warriors and Their Prey" takes a look at the WoSD from another angle [0]

Basically, the WoSD 'was' (still is?) a mechanism by which authoritarians could impose control on society by oppressing society's undesirables. Echos of the Nazis, engender a police state, control Black people, etc etc.

But the WoSD hasn't gone so well, so it (as the main phenomena) was been supplanted by the War On Terrorism (cue the Patriot Act...) That has gotten a bit stale (but is still in effect?), so now it's ... Russians? Covid-19 and all the relevant restrictions?

Or the GOP has decided to stop being indirect and now is going blatantly full out towards overt authoritarianism using The Big Lie as the mechanism? In some parallel universe, liberals are now being rounded up and put into FEMA re-education camps on President-For-Life Trump's orders because they tried to steal the election (and every future one as well).

There is no one Single True Motivation to this sort of social phenomena - they are all different expressions of the sociopaths in charge's drives for power.

[0] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drug-Warriors-Their-Prey-Police/dp/...

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by asoneth on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:28PM (#27543567)
WoSD = "War on Some Drugs".

(Primarily used by drug legalization advocates, presumably to convey the arbitrary distinction between legal and illegal drugs.)

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ttonkytonk on Thursday June 17, 2021 @08:25PM (#27545992)
I don't believe it's helpful to demonize the people behind this (or anybody for that matter.

They may not have minded the side benefits, but it's reasonable to believe they had a genuine public health concern.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by NaturalPhallacy on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:42PM (#27543740)
>But, it has provided many with an excuse to pass restrictive laws, to win elections, to gain contracts with the government.

And militarize the police.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by MuffinFlavored on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:31PM (#27542829)
> a national group that advocates for total drug decriminalization.

Will this ever be achieved in the US in the next... 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years?

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by sokoloff on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:02PM (#27543217)
I tend to expect a federal decriminalization of marijuana in the next 10 years. I doubt we'll see a decriminalization of crystal meth in the next 50 years.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by kragen on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:22PM (#27543459)
Crystal meth was discovered in 01893; it has been legally available by prescription in the US since at least the 01950s. I don't think it's ever been entirely illegal like marijuana. Nowadays its main legal use is for obesity treatment under the name Desoxyn.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by MuffinFlavored on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:12PM (#27543329)
What drug would be next to target on the list of "good candidates for decriminalization" after marijuana?
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by cwkoss on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:25PM (#27543514)
In order of ascending net harm to individual and society: Mushrooms, buprenorphine, LSD, Ecstasy, Steroids, Khat

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/what-does-science-tell-us-abo...

Personally, I think a great amount of harm reduction could be achieved by legalizing at least one recreational drug in every class, determined by which has least relative harm to the user. If there was a clean, legal and affordable option, I believe demand for the more-harmful drugs in the class would be significantly reduced. i.e. "stimulant" demand is somewhat elastic, and by making the least harmful stimulant (not sure if that is Khat or not) easily available, demand for Meth would be significantly reduced and market effects would make its availability much less widespread

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by sokoloff on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:17PM (#27543390)
I don't know enough to judge and I would hope that we'd look to the science, medicine, and what other countries have done with success to make that determination.

Psilocybin is the first possible candidate that comes to my mind, but I'd rather have us use a sound framework of harm-minimization than to favor/disfavor any particular drug.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by bosswipe on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:19PM (#27543427)
Psychedelics are probably next. Already there is some movement, Oakland and Denver have decriminalized magic mushrooms.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by monocasa on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:32PM (#27543613)
Also the entire state of Oregon has both decriminalized, and has approved and is setting a legal medical infra just like with marijuana.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by Aa9C4xPz43Gg7k6 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:23PM (#27543482)
Policies should be judged by actual results not by stated goals. If it was politically profitable then it's a good enough reason.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ridgeguy on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:46PM (#27543795)
A good read on the genesis of the American War on Drugs is the book "Chasing the Scream", by Johann Hari.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by jimbob45 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:48PM (#27543063)
>The "War on Drugs" have failed to make USA safer, healthier or any other positive metric.

Speak for yourself. My methhead sister-in-law is in prison and I certainly feel safer. Addicts cannot be trusted and bring families down.

People raised away from addicts (read: white liberals) don’t understand how destructive they can be to a community.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by klyrs on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:17PM (#27543389)
Hi, white liberal raised by an addict here. I've known quite a few meth addicts over the years. The ones who get sent to prison are uniformly worse off than those who get sent to rehab. A notable distinction, white addicts I know have been mostly sent to rehab; everybody else winds up in jail/prison where there's a booming drug trade and surprise surprise, they don't get clean.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by thaumasiotes on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:46PM (#27543794)
> I've known quite a few meth addicts over the years. The ones who get sent to prison are uniformly worse off than those who get sent to rehab.

But your parent comment said "my methhead sister-in-law is in prison and I certainly feel safer", not "my methhead sister-in-law is in prison and she certainly feels safer."

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by jimbob45 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:28PM (#27543559)
Rehab is more expensive than jail and convincing citizens to spend tax money on drug addicts who chose to screw their own lives up instead of putting that tax money into schools is a tough sell for politicians. Drug addicts are typically a terrible investment with near zero return. Better to spend money on people who choose to live their lives in ways that better their communities.

"War on drugs" was actually genius marketing because it conceals the fact that the government is actually doing as little as possible as cheaply as possible by just chucking people in prison instead of sending them to rehab.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by dragonwriter on Thursday June 17, 2021 @06:38PM (#27545223)
> Rehab is more expensive than jail

Inpatient treatment is more expensive per day than jail, sure. But not all treatment is inpatient, and it doesn’t make a lot of sense to compare per day, anyway. There’s plenty of studies showing that treatments saves money compared to (and especially in) criminal justice.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by klyrs on Thursday June 17, 2021 @06:30PM (#27545152)
Only, it's pennywise, pound foolish. One day in jail is cheaper than one day in rehab, but a month in rehab is cheaper than a lifetime of recidivism. So it's not genius marketing for people who genuinely want to keeps costs down, it's genius marketing for authoritarianisn.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by Falling3 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:11PM (#27543319)
Unless you're locking these people up forever, giving them a timeout solves absolutely nothing. Evidence-based prevention and treatment are the clear answers. No one is claiming addiction isn't a problem. We just simple want to actually address the problem instead of enacting feel good measures that either fail to address the problem or actively make it worse.
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ericbarrett on Thursday June 17, 2021 @02:57PM (#27543174)
People destroy their lives with alcohol just the same. Should we abolish liquor again? (I have meth-addled family too btw)
Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by jimbob45 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:09PM (#27543293)
I would argue that we (assuming you're US, like me) largely already have with the liquor ban until 21.

However, no, I don't agree that alcohol is "just the same". People rarely commit robbery and murder to get another hit of alcohol. Conversely, many drug addicts are unable to stop themselves from taking desperate measures to get their next hit when it is not easily accessible.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by ericbarrett on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:25PM (#27543515)
People commit robbery to get more money for alcohol all the time. The fact that it’s cheap and available everywhere is why there’s not much murder—but there was plenty during Prohibition in the U.S[0].

Go hang out in a liquor store in a less-advantaged area of any U.S. city and tell me the sad sacks coming in for singles of rotgut are fine, upstanding citizens who’ve never broken a car window or traded an EBT card for cash and let their kids go hungry.

I don’t propose a solution for this—I’m a programmer, not a social policy maker. But if you could buy clean amphetamines cheaply and OTC, the way you can with booze, the problems of meth use would look quite different.

[0] https://mafiamembershipcharts.blogspot.com/2017/01/chicago-u... (and this is just gangs)

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by Broken_Hippo on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:34PM (#27543628)
"People rarely commit robbery and murder to get another hit of alcohol."

This is mostly because shoplifting is a thing, and possibly because you can do things like steal from family and your food budget can generally keep you drunk enough that you don't care if you eat. Vodka can be really, really cheap.

Addicts with enough money to afford their addiction rarely commit robbery or murder, by the way, as evidenced by the politicians, entertainers, and sports players that wind up having addiction issues. Small towns still generally have low murder rates, and have addiction.

I'd argue that folks rarely commit robbery and murder for their other addictions, too - we just hear about them on the news, the same one that draws attention to things that hook into your fear and sensationalizes it. In any case, I'd need sources to see if it is really a cause in anything but a tiny number of addicts. I'm guessing more get caught for public intox or possession.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by depaya on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:22PM (#27543472)
Robbery and murder are already illegal. Why are we criminalizing motivations for crime instead of trying to prevent crime?

Do you you think drug-related robbery and murder would decrease if we simply provided free drugs to anybody who wanted them?

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by whydoibother on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:17PM (#27543398)
>People rarely commit robbery and murder to get another hit of alcohol.

Weird. Almost like making it legal, relatively cheap, and easily accessible makes it so you don't have to resort to desperate means.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by passivate on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:37PM (#27543668)
> Almost like making it legal, relatively cheap, and easily accessible makes it so you don't have to resort to desperate means.

I think the question of legality muddles the argument. Its illegal to drive under the influence yet many do and some end up in horrific accidents.

We're stewards of the next generation. We're their parents, teachers, role models. Our aim should be to reduce the use of crystal meth, and other drugs that cause self-harm. No different than promoting exercise, knowledge, healthy lifestyles, etc.

Making something illegal is a powerful disincentive - but we don't expect it to work 100% perfectly. Its important to recognize when something isn't working - but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Government policies are like supertankers and once they're operating at speed, they're hard to stop/steer.

Re:After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doin... by whydoibother on Thursday June 17, 2021 @03:15PM (#27543360)
The fact you are happy your sister is in prison and not in a treatment facility says a lot about you.