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Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by amalcon on Friday June 11, 2021 @05:33PM (#27478779)
I'm pretty good with electrical diagrams and such, and I know exactly what one needs to do to stay about as safe as one can. I've fished (ethernet) wires before. I still hire electricians, because it's the only practical way to buy electrician's insurance for a project.

I know a retired electrician. He hires electricians for anything nontrivial, for the insurance.

That said your broader point has a lot of merit. I hire plumbers for anything more complicated than snaking a drain, and it's because of their specialty knowledge.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by InvertedRhodium on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:39PM (#27479372)
Here in NZ, a lot of work on your own property is legal - even some relatively complicated stuff - but the catch is that you need to find a qualified inspector to sign off on it.

The reality is that unless someone knows you and your work personally (friend, relative, w/e) it can be really difficult to find an inspector who is willing to sign off on some random persons work as there is a liability component (nowhere near as large as there is in the US, we have publicly funded "accident insurance" called ACC) in doing so.

That being said, anything I can legally do myself I do and I am sure to maintain good relationships with the inspectors I know.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by propogandist on Saturday June 12, 2021 @02:25AM (#27482088)
laws requiring a third party to sign off on things you can do to your own property sounds like a violation of freedoms
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by franga2000 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @03:19AM (#27482357)
What "freedoms"? That term is used everywhere and rarely defined well. The freedom to "do what you want with your own property"? That doesn't exist - anywhere! You need to follow the rules and the only way to make sure someone is doing things properly (or at least know how to) is either to have them be certified in what they do or have someone who is certified check their work.

If you screw up your electrical wiring, your house can catch fire. If a house is on fire, the neighboring houses are rather likely to also catch fire. Once you have a handful of houses on fire, all bets are off - the entire neighbourhood might burn. Still think you should have that "freedom"?

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by salawat on Saturday June 12, 2021 @11:43AM (#27485204)
>That doesn't exist - anywhere! You need to follow the rules and the only way to make sure someone is doing things properly (or at least know how to) is either to have them be certified in what they do or have someone who is certified check their work.

Dude, trust me. Yes there are building and electrical codes. Many are written in blood. The perception that there is no implicit freedom to be found anywhere is unique to our internet worked world where you can pull the tail of the invisible cat and have it yowl at the inspector in short order.

What you are probably struggling with, is the concept of the Social Contract's primacy. There are those that believe what is allowed starts with a yes/no from the biggest baddest enforcer of their idea of the Social Contract. I call these folks Hobbesian. Then there are those who see the Social Contract itself as something subject to the independent acceptance in whole or in part by independent, free-thinking agents. I call these folks Locke-ian. They are famous for the intellectual fireworks that get set off if you lock them in a room together to settle their differences.

The reality is, the truth is something more akin to: let's implement paperwork and objective inspections so people have a safe recourse, but leave the door open for people to do what they want with things they own, and only argue about the more philosophical notes when there is a clear and present breach of decorum by one party or another.

This arrangement tends to keep both parties reasonably happy.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by franga2000 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:46PM (#27485635)
I honestly have no clue what you're on about. There's nothing philosophical about this discussion - it's entirely practical. We don't want to get hurt by other people's mistakes, therefore we don't let people do things where that is a possibility without training or supervision by someone who is trained. You do not have the freedom to do XYZ when society has decided that if you attempt to do XYZ, measures should be taken to stop and/or punish you. The fact that you have the ability to do XYZ and that the authorities we have delegated to ensure you don't do XYZ are doing their job well is entirely besides the point.

People don't want to get hit by a car, so we've collectively agreed to require that all drivers pass an exam that proves they know how to drive safely enough to bring the risk of them running someone over with a car to an acceptable level. The general freedom to drive a car does not exist - we've collectively limited it to only those individuals, who pass our standard. Similarly, everyone does not have the right to build their own airplanes and fly people around in them, because those people could get seriously hurt - we have limited that "freedom" to only people who have proven that they know enough about how to build and/or fly planes to, again, decrease that risk down to an acceptable level.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by mox1 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:02AM (#27484177)
So do you have any data to back this up?

Do home-owner repaired house catch on fire more often than houses repaired by licensed contractors?

My insurance company has never told me I can't repair my own house.

Easy to say things like this, but once you get out into the real world you notice a lot of America doesn't want to pay $150/hour to change a light switch...and has the knowledge to DIY it.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by franga2000 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:22PM (#27485467)
Back what up? I never made any claims about whether DIY is more dangerous or not. But the fact is that DIY or not, certain regulations must be followed when doing repairs - this is written into law in most countries. You're not allowed, for example, to hook up an oven to a 30A breaker using speaker wire. Because we can't trust that everyone will know not to do that, certifications have been designed to ensure correct knowledge and skill and those certifications are often mandated by law. You have two options - either get certified, so you can be trusted to carry out the work yourself, or get someone who is certified to at least look it over. Seems entirely reasonable.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday June 12, 2021 @01:42PM (#27486109)
> You have two options - either get certified, so you can be trusted to carry out the work yourself, or get someone who is certified to at least look it over. Seems entirely reasonable.

That it seems entirely reasonable is most of the problem.

Because people imagine that getting certified is a two week safety course, and that getting inspected is paying someone $10 to spend ten minutes looking over your five minute job.

But then the licensed professionals capture the regulators and the licensing requirement stops being about safety and starts being about gatekeeping, so getting licensed becomes impractical for anyone not full-time gainfully employed in that industry. And the gatekeeping and bureaucracy cause the inspection to require weeks to get an appointment and the payment of $150 over the replacement of a $10 light switch.

Then, you notice that the light in your living room flickers sometimes. You would be inclined to have your buddy the electrical engineer come have a look except that he's not a licensed electrician and you're not convinced that the lights flickering once in a while is a problem whose solution is worth $150. Two months later the light switch with the bad connection finally overheats and your house burns down. Or you're willing to pay the money but it takes 15 days to get an appointment and the amount of time you had before the problem became a fire was two weeks.

Making repairs to safety-critical things less accessible is dangerous.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by mox1 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @10:03PM (#27489149)
Great point. My brother and I tried to get some type of electricians license in order to do our DIY work more "professionally".

I took household lighting classes at the local community college and our union electrician uncle helped use redo his house.

Impossible in my state to get a electrician license without doing 1+ years as an apprentice under a electrical company full-time. Once you get the "apprentice" license, you then spend another year or two under more supervision to become a journeyman.

At that point you are able to pull permits and work on your own. So 3-5 years working as a full time electrician. They expect you to learn everything on the job and eventually take a test.

More time to get an electrician license than to become a licensed police officer (250 hours of academy training).

Sweet. All of that to legally change a dishwasher in my house.

So all of the people on this forum spouting off about "certified electricians" are either part of the electrician racket themselves or have 0 actual clue what they are talking about.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by NegativeLatency on Saturday June 12, 2021 @02:41AM (#27482167)
The prior owner of my house was very free with his exposed wire nuts and other sketchy wiring practices then. I’ll take some level of safety that my house won’t burn down or electrocute me over absolute freedom.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by pessimizer on Saturday June 12, 2021 @08:08AM (#27483892)
You should have a house inspected before you buy it. It's not necessary to monitor and restrict all owners to protect possible future buyers who don't want to inspect a house before buying it.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by NegativeLatency on Saturday June 12, 2021 @01:06PM (#27485806)
It was inspected and specifically called out by the inspector in the visible areas, but there’s no way to know the full scope of the issues unless the inspector were to rip open walls and stuff.

Either way we got a good deal on the house and I’ve been learning a lot about how to fix it the right way.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by TheCoelacanth on Saturday June 12, 2021 @11:10AM (#27485002)
No inspector in the world is going to open up all of the electrical fixtures and look at the wiring inside.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by NegativeLatency on Saturday June 12, 2021 @01:07PM (#27485814)
There were some splices from the 60’s that were completely inaccessible in a sealed attic that weren’t in junction boxes.

There were also some hot wires just dangling out of a box in the basement, and a couple fried plugs, so I and I assume the inspector knew that there were bound to be more fun surprises.

It’s not like the inspector is going to say “well we better open up this wall just in case”

Ended up rewiring one of the bathrooms after what started out as “change a couple of switches and add a GFCI”

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by gogopuppygogo on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:06PM (#27485371)
Mike Holmes would.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by rob74 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @02:42AM (#27482170)
You can do anything you want on your own property, but if said property burns down because of incorrect electrical work you did yourself, you might not get money from your insurance...
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by franga2000 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @03:23AM (#27482371)
Where is this notion of "you can do anything on your property" coming from? A similar one is also "it's my car, I'll do what I want with it", etc. But all modification to both your house anr your car have a big possibility of puttinf others in danger. If you mod your car in a dangerous way or screw up your house electrical wiring, other unrelated people may get hurt - you don't have the right to do that!
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by erikerikson on Saturday June 12, 2021 @03:54AM (#27482542)
Physics allows it? This in the same way one can commit crimes or at least that's how I read it. Clearly one can not do the things physics doesn't allow.

As you point out there are likely punitive consequences but those are after the fact.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by pjerem on Saturday June 12, 2021 @02:44AM (#27482179)
Or they are just needed to ensure you are not accidentally making a future giant « why would I need a fuse here ? » barbecue that you may possibly sell to another person.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by tjpnz on Saturday June 12, 2021 @08:41AM (#27484065)
As a Kiwi I tend to see it more as common sense. What freedom does one have with half a house lying on top of them?
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by einpoklum on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:07PM (#27479088)
TBH the electricians I know tend to rely on their know-how to just do things right rather than on somebody else with the ability to sure in case it all burns down.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by einpoklum on Saturday June 12, 2021 @02:47PM (#27486608)
s/sure/sue.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by gambiting on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:07PM (#27479086)
What do you mean electrician's insurance?

I do have a so called "DIY insurance" on my home policy - if I damage something while doing a DIY project(drill into a cable or a pipe for instance) my home insurance will cover the repair. Is that not enough?

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by akiselev on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:20PM (#27479191)
No, that's just for incidental damage and probably legally mandated by your state. If your house burns down to due to DIY wiring, the insurance company won't pay out a dime (if the inspectors discover it).

Electricians have liability insurance provided by an organization specializing in policies for practicing tradesmen. If an insurance company fails to disqualify a homeowner's policy and pays out, it will then go after the electrician and his insurance to recoup their losses. Residential electrical fires are extremely preventable so insurance companies almost universally refuse to insure homes with DIY electrical work because the homeowner is the one liable.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by shimon on Saturday June 12, 2021 @01:53AM (#27481933)
This idea that DIY wiring can invalidate your insurance policy is widely repeated, but I don't think it's true.

Homeowner's insurance routinely covers preventable disasters. Did you leave a candle on or a heater plugged in and start a fire? Did you not cut down a tree that was looking unhealthy and it fell on your home? These are all situations where your insurance would pay a claim. The cases where they would not pay a claim are more along the lines of "deliberate arson".

You may well need to certify that work is permitted in order to get an insurance policy.

Relevant reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeImprovement/comments/7vwe23/doe...

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by jjeaff on Sunday June 13, 2021 @04:17PM (#27495989)
Ya, it's total bologna. Insurance covers stupidity as well as acts of god unless specifically excluded otherwise.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by markkanof on Friday June 11, 2021 @11:57PM (#27481398)
There is just no way this is correct. First, most municipalities in America anyway allow a homeowner to do their own electrical work. You are required to get a permit for the work though and then have it inspected by the city inspector to verify the work was done correctly. But second and maybe more importantly how would you ever be able to get insurance on an older house. There may have been dozens of different electricians and homeowners that did work over the years. Who would the insurance company go after if a problem occurred.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by akiselev on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:25AM (#27481521)
> First, most municipalities in America anyway allow a homeowner to do their own electrical work. You are required to get a permit for the work though and then have it inspected by the city inspector to verify the work was done correctly

They allow them to change sockets and light switches. Anything requiring a city inspector is literally the same thing as getting a licensed electrician. Municipalities have a lot more insurance than an electrician does, often unwritten by the same reinsurers as the electricians.

> But second and maybe more importantly how would you ever be able to get insurance on an older house. There may have been dozens of different electricians and homeowners that did work over the years. Who would the insurance company go after if a problem occurred.

The insurance company goes bankrupt and the state bails out the homeowner. That's why we have electrical contractor surety bonds.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by mox1 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:07AM (#27484206)
I've read over my home-owners insurance policy very well. There are no provisions that say anything about "electrical work requiring a city permit shall be done by a licensed electrician".

Do you have any evidence to point to where someone changes a dishwasher or some other small electrical project, and later insurance denies a claim?

I can imagine scenarios of gross negligence (wires run all over exposed, gas leaks, etc. etc.), but if we are talking small mistakes by homeowner during a un-permitted DIY project, I have a very very hard time believing insurance is going to scour the rubble to investigate...like literally how to you prove that!?

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by jjeaff on Sunday June 13, 2021 @04:26PM (#27496085)
Your regular homeowner's insurance policy covers diy everything. You've been talking to too many insurance salesman.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by barbacoa on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:13PM (#27479628)
What exactly is diy electrical work? Many states let you file a homestead permit to do your own non-trivial electrical work.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by shkkmo on Friday June 11, 2021 @10:49PM (#27481028)
Just because your state allows you to do the work does not mean that your insurance company will cover your loas is your work burns your home down.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by IgorPartola on Friday June 11, 2021 @11:52PM (#27481381)
I am curious about this as well. Is swapping out light switches and outlets something to be concerned about or is it the more major stuff like running wires, adding breakers, etc?
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by gambiting on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:37AM (#27483088)
Hmmmm I'm not so sure. I'm in the UK not in the states, so the laws are different I'm sure, but in UK you only need a licenced electrician when adding/removing an electrical circuit and for any electrical work in the bathrooms. So say adding a new spur from your fuse box to add electricity to your garage or a garden shed - that sort of thing. Any work on existing circuits(adding sockets, light switches, new light mounts etc) is fair play and doesn't require a permission or any paperwork. Instead you just get an electrical inspection done and an electrician signs off on the house as a whole.

Like someone else said - when you buy a house you don't know how the electrical wiring was done and by whom. Paperwork is required only for the things I mentioned above - new circuits added after the house was built mostly. And even then someone would need to prove that it was done after construction.

So even if the insurance company wanted to deny a claim due to a DIY fitted socket....I think they would struggle, as there's absolutely nothing forbidding me from installing one, and most importantly - my contract with the insurance company doesn't forbid me from doing so.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by hellbannedguy on Friday June 11, 2021 @09:27PM (#27480524)
What country are you talking about?