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Re:Software is eating the car by GuB-42 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:42PM (#27464761)
So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

The problem with that dumb car is that it is missing that very convenient feature. So you want a dumb car but with feature X, because feature X is really great. But the other guy will not care about X and will think it is bloat, but Y is really important, while for someone else, it will be all about Z.

In the end, to satisfy everyone, you will need X+Y+Z, everyone will think it is bloated but you can't remove a single feature without someone complaining... As in, I want things light but don't remove my feature.

Unless it is custom made bloat is almost inevitable.

Re:Software is eating the car by northwest65 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:57PM (#27465729)
> mechanical door lock

Power central locking doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

> manual windows

Electric windows doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

> no car stereo

Car stereos do not need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

> no power steering

Power steering doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates. Hell it doesn't even require electronics.

> no thermostat

Thermostats are mechanical...

> no cruise control

Cruise control doesn't need a microcontroller, code, or a touch screen, or updates.

Re:Software is eating the car by worik on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:38PM (#27466773)
I do not mind having computer controlled running gear. But I want to own it. No live updates. No wireless network interface to the system software of any sort. GPL software only.

I do not expect to get that soon.

Re:Software is eating the car by fomine3 on Friday June 11, 2021 @12:43AM (#27469369)
> * doesn't need a microcontroller,

Really?

Re:Software is eating the car by lelanthran on Friday June 11, 2021 @03:36AM (#27470366)
Yes.. I had a 1986 BMW that had central locking, electric windows, radio, power steering, cruise control and a thermostat (which, as OP said, mechanical anyway).

No microcontroller on that car[1]; it was a very reliable car too (bought it with 50000km, sold it with 270000km and only ever did services. Nothing broke in that time).

Bosch k-jetronic fuel injection, no microcontroller needed.

Re:Software is eating the car by toast0 on Friday June 11, 2021 @02:16AM (#27469924)
> mechanical door lock

Push button, engage solenoid, who needs a microcontroller?

> manual windows

Push button, turn on motor, limit switch to turn off the motor when you get to the end. Microcontrollers make pinch detection and calibration nicer though.

> no car stereo

Tons of examples here, a stereo built today would most likely have electronics and/or a microcontroller because it's cheaper than an analog FM radio, but an old one will still work fine.

> no power steering

On my 1978 vehicle. I believe this is hydraulic with a belt powered pump to reduce the user torque on the steering wheel. No electronics, certainly not a microcontroller.

> no cruise control

On my 1978 vehicle. No microcontroller there, just some vacuum linkages. Maybe a bit of electronics to turn things on and off, the switch certainly felt like an electric switch.

None of these things require a microcontroller. Because it's cheaper, almost all of them use a microcontroller on modern cars; thermostats on lower models would probably be the most likely to be a simple system without a microcontroller.

Re:Software is eating the car by adrianN on Friday June 11, 2021 @02:29AM (#27469989)
You can save a lot of cabling when you have central message bus shared by different components where a microcontroller decides whether a particular message is meant for this solenoid or that motor.
Re:Software is eating the car by arpa on Friday June 11, 2021 @08:37AM (#27472461)
you also have a single point of failure, which is a double-edged sword.
Re:Software is eating the car by potta_coffee on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:40PM (#27465505)
Since when is power steering a "smart" feature? Power locks and windows are mechanical devices, solenoids powered by the car battery. The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control and we've had that for years and years. I don't think that this is an "either / or" proposition where we have either a car running off bloated software or a car limited to 1950's features. As far as I'm concerned, cars from the mid 1990's to mid 2000's are peak.
Re:Software is eating the car by judge2020 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:11PM (#27465915)
This is missing the point - Person A wants their next car to have certain features, but person B also wants their next car to have certain features which person A doesn't want. Car companies aren't going to make 200 car variants with different features combinations, they're just going to group all the features people want into new cars and ship it to everyone. To stay competitive they just put out whatever it going to sell and 90%+ of people are fine with the increasing level of touchscreen controls, so they'll keep moving towards that since it also ends up reducing COGS and simplifies assembly of the dashboard, increasing margin. Person A can not buy the car if it doesn’t suit them.
Re:Software is eating the car by kingsuper20 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:26PM (#27467381)
I was going to say something like this, that products (like a lot of things) are a combination of multiple users' wants, but I'd say that the main problem here is that the implementations themselves are becoming more monolithic.

The extreme case (as you mention) is the moment you stick in a touch screen and a fair amount of intelligence. You might as well put a jillion features in there plus you save money on physical controls.

They used to be capable of building cars with numerous option packages in the 1960's and 1970's, it's pretty remarkable. The 1969 Camaro alone had probably a dozen different engines available from 3 families.

Re:Software is eating the car by lotsofpulp on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:13PM (#27468589)
Automation drives down costs for standardized, mass produced items, but it may also remove the economies of scale that made it possible for more variety to exist due to decreased demand for those varieties.
Re:Software is eating the car by jjav on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:11PM (#27465926)
> The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control

Cruise control doesn't have to have any electronics at all either, earlier cars had vacuum actuated cruise control.

Re:Software is eating the car by hallway_monitor on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:13PM (#27467232)
Exactly. I remember when the cruise control vacuum actuated cable snapped on my Honda Civic. No more cruise control for me and I could hear the reason why!
Re:Software is eating the car by JoBrad on Friday June 11, 2021 @08:40AM (#27472493)
But it’s really bad cruise control that ends up costing MPG, s as well.
Re:Software is eating the car by CogitoCogito on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:06PM (#27465115)
> So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

I think an extremely small minority of people who want a "dumb" car don't want those features. I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed on a touch screen. I think anything that existed 20 years ago is not regarded as dumb by basically anybody.

Re:Software is eating the car by drdavid on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:40PM (#27465507)
It has been a long time since you could get a truly bespoke car from a major manufacturer in a reasonable price segment.

But, you used to be able to order all sorts of stuff - or not order it. For example, you could save a few hundred bucks by not having a rear bumper, not having a radio, opting for manual windows and transmission, opting for no cruise control, etc...

There were a multitude of options and you could add/delete most anything you wanted.

These days, it's down to packages and colors. Often, you can't even mix packages and trying to get manually controlled windows will usually get you laughed at.

Re:Software is eating the car by kingsuper20 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:34PM (#27467448)
Fun fact. On export first gen Camaro you could save a few bucks by ordering them with seat belt delete (A48 option).
Re:Software is eating the car by drdavid on Friday June 11, 2021 @04:22PM (#27477984)
Indeed. Before safety belts were mandatory, they were optional on many models.
Re:Software is eating the car by slg on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:00PM (#27465772)
I think you are missing the point. The problem is what do those features mean?

Is the stereo just an AM/FM radio? Does it have a CD player? A CD changer (how many people even buy CDs anymore)? Does it get satellite radio? Does it have AUX input? Does it have Bluetooth? Is there an interface to communicate to the the Bluetooth device (people driving around controlling their stereo from their phone is more dangerous than people doing the same on their car's touchscreen)? Can it stream music without a Bluetooth connection? Does it have Spotify? What about Apple Music? Does it offer handsfree control? And so on.

There simply isn't a universal definition of what a "dumb car" would be and not everyone is going to desire the same set of features.

Re:Software is eating the car by CogitoCogito on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:06PM (#27465857)
No I think you're missing the point. I never said there was universal definition. I just said that very few people complaining about smart cars are against features like "mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control"...
Re:Software is eating the car by slg on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:33PM (#27466118)
I can't speak directly for OP, but I think the specific part you are quoting was being facetious. No one would consider power windows as a "smart" feature. But where is the line between a smart power window and a dumb power window? For example, are they just simple windows with an up and down button? Are there options for disabling the window buttons in the back seat for child safety? Are there options for the back seat windows to only go down halfway? Will the windows go down completely with one touch or do you have to hold the button? Can you set the windows to close when you turn off the ignition or lock the car? You might not care about any of those features, but some people will. That is what leads to bloat.
Re:Software is eating the car by Goronmon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:10PM (#27465164)
I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed on a touch screen.

Personally, I really enjoy that with our new van I can listen to a podcast/music through Bluetooth and pause/resume playback through a simple touchscreen without having to fiddle with my phone directly.

Re:Software is eating the car by CogitoCogito on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:14PM (#27465211)
> Personally, I really enjoy that with our new van I can listen to a podcast/music through Bluetooth and pause/resume playback through a simple touchscreen without having to fiddle with my phone directly.

I'm not sure what your point is. I never said that no one wants these features. Obviously there are many that do.

Re:Software is eating the car by holoduke on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:10PM (#27466466)
Attach your phone to a holder. Buy a Bluetooth adapter from AliExpress and your good to go with any car
Re:Software is eating the car by hallway_monitor on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:19PM (#27467302)
Exactly. I don't see why a screen attached to the car is somehow superior to the native screen I've been using for years; just put it somewhere accessible. I've found that the CD player mounted phone holders are insanely convenient in almost every car.
Re:Software is eating the car by bingidingi on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:43PM (#27465537)
I'd actually like manual windows and no cruise control, I've had both fail on me many times.
Re:Software is eating the car by randcraw on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:50PM (#27466270)
The features you mention aren't any more "smart" than an intermittent wiper is, which was invented long before electronics appeared in cars, much less digital logic.

US luxury cars in 1965 had all the features you mention. They were delightfully dumb and simple to operate. That's what I want now: knobs, sliders, and buttons that move and click when my finger pushes them.

Re:Software is eating the car by mavhc on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:35PM (#27466747)
Do you want to pay more for them?
Re:Software is eating the car by asdff on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:02PM (#27467078)
The market does. Porsche will sell you a stripped out version of the car for thousands more. Webbing pull tab instead of a door handle.
Re:Software is eating the car by randcraw on Friday June 11, 2021 @12:18AM (#27469244)
Adding labor saving devices always increases the price you pay for a product. I LIKE labor saving features, just so long as they don't get in my way or tell me what to do.

I just want a car to ENABLE me in intuitive ways and that don't go obsolete before the tires need replacing.

Re:Software is eating the car by mavhc on Friday June 11, 2021 @10:57AM (#27474267)
Knobs and sliders and buttons all cost money to create, wire in, fix. 1 touchscreen is cheaper.
Re:Software is eating the car by Arrath on Friday June 11, 2021 @12:51PM (#27475679)
I'll happily take slightly more expensive knobs, sliders and buttons over a touchscreen.

I know exactly where, e.g. my fan speed knob is and I can reach for it confidently. Or I can take my eyes of the road so I'm not blindly groping around the touchscreen to find the increase/decrease button, assuming its even on the right screen and I don't need to go through several menus to find it. Cost doesn't enter my mind in this scenario.

Re:Software is eating the car by Jill_the_Pill on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:48PM (#27464863)
Electric windows and power steering are unlikely to be tracking your location.
Re:Software is eating the car by ok123456 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:05PM (#27465107)
It's not inevitable. At one point we made a 6th gen Honda Civic.
Re:Software is eating the car by 1970-01-01 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:53PM (#27465674)
This was literally the pinnacle of dumb cars. Everything could be manual or automatic, but you still got OBDII, warning lights, and of course ABS and air bags. Adding a new DIN head unit, you could have HD radio and Bluetooth completely disconnected from the ECU. I think the automotive industry forgot how to engineer. All the features, all we ever needed in a car, was right there in the late 90s.
Re:Software is eating the car by jjav on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:10PM (#27465903)
Not sure how it is today (haven't bought a new car in many years) but all of these things used to be selectable options a la carte.

It's not particularly difficult for the manufacturer. All the cars had the wiring for all the features since that's the hardest part to do after the factory, but doesn't cost much. Control modules and actuators can be added very late in the assembly line (sometimes even at the dealer prep) so you only get the ones you want to pay for.

Re:Software is eating the car by holoduke on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:08PM (#27466446)
Post 2000 and pre 2010 cars are essentially Just like modern cars except without the bloated infotainment crap.
Re:Software is eating the car by everdrive on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:32AM (#27471884)
>So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

I actually just bought a 2010 which has mechanical door locks, manual windows, and no cruise control. It's great. What's the problem?

Re:Software is eating the car by toomanybeersies on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:30PM (#27468957)
> So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

I used to own a Datsun 720 pickup (built 1982) that matched this specification. It even had a manual choke; starting the truck without flooding the engine required a bit of skill.

It was the best vehicle I've ever owned. On the rare occasion it needed maintenance, I could do everything myself. I didn't even need a workshop manual, because it was all intuitive.