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Re:You use more open source software than you think by jasonhansel on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:15PM (#27453320)
This is the inevitable result of the widespread use of permissive, non-copyleft licenses. Instead of developing an alternative to proprietary software that protects users' freedom, OSS work becomes just a source of free labor for large tech companies.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by dkarras on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:34PM (#27453536)
I don't think many people are lamenting the fact that their project is popular and being used.

Because they can just... stop maintaining it if they wanted. They are completely free to do so.

Many developers like to feel useful, feel like they are solving an important problem in a suitable way. Some even want the fame associated with it, or the doors having such (a) project(s) opens (you use X? I wrote it, and maintain it - or people hunting you specifically because you are known to have created X).

The point is, the tradeoff between the feeling of being taken advantage of and feeling useful and fulfilled because of solving an important problem in a suitable way is controlled directly by the author / developer! If they feel it is not worth the effort, they can just stop!

Having a permissive license helps you gain popularity. Many people won't touch GPL derivatives for their business / side-project-that-might-turn-into-a-business so such a license can have an inhibiting effect in adoption. Developers generally aren't stupid, they know that and they choose more permissive licenses, because they want to be seen, they want their solution to be used. They maybe want the fame and open doors associated with having such a project take off. It is a trade-off under their control. They can stop with maintenance any time. Hell they can even change the license of future versions (if they have not started with a GPL-like license) if they want. So I don't see the problem here. Everything is under the developer's control. You can't have it both ways: The boost to popularity by having a no-strings-attached license, but reaping proportional profits from such an endeavor as if you had a restrictive license protected by a business entity.

If you give money (value) away for free, you'll be pretty popular. "I want to be easily popular as if I'm giving money (value) away for free, without actually giving money (value) away for free" does not make much sense.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by lmm on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:33PM (#27455730)
> Many people won't touch GPL derivatives for their business / side-project-that-might-turn-into-a-business so such a license can have an inhibiting effect in adoption. Developers generally aren't stupid, they know that and they choose more permissive licenses, because they want to be seen, they want their solution to be used. They maybe want the fame and open doors associated with having such a project take off. It is a trade-off under their control.

It's a race to the bottom, largely because developers aren't unionized. Developers who would do work under the GPL get undercut by those who are willing to do it for free.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by 3pt14159 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:47PM (#27454329)
I love OSS. I just think it should come with a cap. If a single stakeholder (shareholder, employee, bondholder, etc) is worth $1B USD or more, the license is $1m[0] a year. That way we all get to have fun, but the megagiants like Amazon actually have to pay something back to projects like Postgres. We'll get better security and a naturally progressive, opt-in tax on the largest of companies and investors.

[0] Or whatever, if it's a small library maybe $50k or maybe something that scales with market cap, etc. Throw lawyers at it.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by aloer on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:21PM (#27454681)
scaling with market cap and having a huge “free” tier is an interesting approach. Something like an official license requiring companies to pay 10k for each trillion $ market cap calculated on jan first of the current year

low complexity, low decision making overhead. it wouldn’t help for small or very specialized open source projects but the big ones that keep the world running are probably used in some way in all the big companies anyways so the total should come out somewhere in the range of 1-2 developer salaries (adjust the 10k above to match. no idea how many trillion+ companies there are right now)

edit: I overestimated how many there are. With 10k one would get to 50k this year. Numbers must be adjusted a bit :)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by version_five on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:50PM (#27454352)
You can make a license like that if you want to.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by sangnoir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:09PM (#27455956)
The problem is that developers hypocritically want to have it both ways: they want all of the upsides of a permissive license (wide adoptions), but none of the downsides (wide adoption by big tech companies without being paid).
Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:25PM (#27454709)
Just don't pretend that it's open source.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by 3pt14159 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:27PM (#27454735)
How is it not open source?
Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:30PM (#27454768)
Because it doesn't meet the Open Source Definition: https://opensource.org/osd

I think you're confusing open-source with visible-source.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by bigiain on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:58PM (#27455489)
It doesn't meet one definition that one advocacy group choose to use.

Other "open source" companies are somewhat more realistic and honest about the term and it's history: https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/open-source/what-is-open-so...

I'm not saying the OSI's objectives and motivations are bad, but they did not invent the term "open source", they were not the first to use it, and their ongoing attempts to gatekeep it's usage are - at least to me - tiresome.

(Having said that, I also find rms's hardcore free software stance tiresome, but I'm glad he chooses to dig his heels in so hard there, as an opposite-end-of-the-bellcurve outlier to counterbalance the vested commercial interests trying to extend and embrace the free software movement for commercial greed...)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by version_five on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:30PM (#27454760)
I would say it could be open source (defined as you can see the source code) but it's not free, as in it has restrictions.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:31PM (#27454773)
> open source (defined as you can see the source code)

But that's not what that's defined as.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by ddulaney on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:09PM (#27455098)
I define Open Source to mean that I can see the source code.

The OSI defines open source one way, and I just defined open source another way. This is an inconsistency that trips up lots of people on HN and elsewhere. There isn’t one definition, there are many, and calling “anybody but the mega-rich can use this for free; they have to pay” open source falls within some definitions but not others.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:11PM (#27455123)
https://xkcd.com/1860/

The OSI's definition is the widely accepted one. If you mean something else, then make up your own word. To redefine open source like you're trying to do just makes communication more difficult for no benefit.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by bigiain on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:03PM (#27455523)
OSI didn't invent the term, and weren't the first ones to use it.

Why shouldn't they be the ones required to "make up their own word"? "Open source" has a reasonable plain english meaning which doesn't automatically include all the requirements of OSI's "definition". I don't see why the simplest plain english interpretation shouldn't be considered "the real one".

You say OSI's definition is "the widely accepted one", I'm 100% certain that's not true if your sample group is representative of "english speakers" instead of "hacker news readers".

(And I'm pretty sure your linked xkcd supports my argument here more than yours.)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by morelisp on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:03AM (#27457753)
Your response is a bit ironic as OSI more or less did invent the term (causality-wise, rather much of the group that invented the term went on to found OSI), but attached an already-existing definition (of free software) to it.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by type0 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:07AM (#27458950)
> defined as you can see the source code

That's "source available"

Re:You use more open source software than you think by jasonhansel on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:39PM (#27453592)
Since widely-publicized OSS work can be a prerequisite for top jobs, it often isn't really a "free choice."

But if it is a choice, then it's a choice that undermines fellow workers. By working for free, you're taking away jobs from people who might genuinely need them and be unable to work for free.

In this way, OSS work can serve to entrench inequality by giving a hiring advantage to those with more time and resources, while reducing the salaried jobs available for others in the industry.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by senko on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:59PM (#27453820)
> Since widely-publicized OSS work can be a prerequisite for top jobs, it often isn't really a "free choice."

Which top jobs require you to be a widely-publicized OSS author?

I've only ever heard this to be a plus (which I believe is fair), not a requirement.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by smarterclayton on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:27PM (#27454118)
It’s not a requirement at Red Hat, because anyone can be converted to the open source religion. This surprised me when I started - I thought I would need to be indoctrinated, but then it just became normal to see open source as the only way to work.

That said, RH hires key contributors all the time (as do many companies), so being the maintainer of a project is definitely a plus.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by abnry on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:59PM (#27453817)
Is there really a shortage of tech jobs caused by open source projects?
Re:You use more open source software than you think by sangnoir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:19PM (#27456008)
I have no evidence at all, but I think open source projects create more jobs than it "destroyed" because it reduces the cost of doing businesses of tech startups at critical growth phases and makes them viable by allowing fewer employees to do more. Without open source, companies would employ more people per company, but have much fewer companies overall, IMO. Additionally, salaries would be much lower because skills wouldn't be easily transferable between jobs - hence lower competition for employees.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by paulryanrogers on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:03PM (#27455050)
I've wondered this for a long time. Or if it had a depressing effect on wages. FOSS certainly helps with productivity. Though I believe it's very likely also depressing wages and reducing the volume of software jobs.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by lupire on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:42PM (#27454256)
Lucky for you, top jobs hire by standard whiteboard quizzes.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by golergka on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:16PM (#27454015)
You don't have any obligation to pursue a top job, nor it is necessary for your survival.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by zxzax on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:53PM (#27454380)
>OSS work becomes just a source of free labor for large tech companies.

I really don't understand why there are always comments of this nature every time this is brought up. Why is the size of the company relevant? Do people here not have jobs in the IT field? When people contribute to open source, anyone is able to use that code, including you. That means when you go get a job at a new company, you can keep using that code. It doesn't matter if you go to a small company or a large company.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by paulryanrogers on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:05PM (#27455068)
Probably because bigger companies have bigger wallets. Bezos can afford to kick back some of gains his engineers get from the work of others. Small shops would have less capacity to give back.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by zxzax on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:37PM (#27455328)
Isn't that the reverse of big tech companies taking free labor? That sounds more like they're giving more free labor, because they can afford to.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by d110af5ccf on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:13PM (#27455976)
> That sounds more like they're giving more free labor, because they can afford to.

But the thing is, they often don't. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by morelisp on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:57AM (#27457700)
Free software was expressly about handing power back to users and developers outside of large companies. The whitewashing of that as OSS combined with the failure to build effective cooperative structures within software development has instead resulted in companies that have more power over more aspects of our lives than any amount of proprietary software ca. 1980-2000.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by parafactual on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:30PM (#27453491)
This isn't snark, but a genuine question. What makes open source developers prefer permissive licenses to GPL and other copyleft licenses? What is the benefit in letting corporations use your work in proprietary software?
Re:You use more open source software than you think by chowells on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:23PM (#27454081)
Writing software sucks. I release code with a permissive license because I want to make it suck a bit less for those who come after me. My only goal is to relieve developer pain by providing reliable chunks of code.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I made an entire service instead of small focused libraries. But that's an entirely different world.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by parafactual on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:44PM (#27456123)
That makes sense. I think it would suck less if less software overall were closed-source, which GPL seems to encourage in the long term.

But one person can't do much, so it at least depends on what one thinks of that.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by SteveMoody73 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:52PM (#27453735)
I don't release much open source code, most of the code I work on can't be released publically.

The code I do release is probably not that useful to many and in most cases is something i've written for personal use primaraly.

I always use a permissive license for anything I release. It's usually served it's initial purpose to me and if it can be of benefit to another, then they should be able to use it in any way they want

Re:You use more open source software than you think by nemothekid on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:56PM (#27453790)
I don't think open source developers prefer permissive licenses - I think permissive licenses are better suited to become popular.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by MereInterest on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:00PM (#27453830)
I think permissive licenses lack any pushback against proprietary network effects, and therefore are subsumed by them. One of the goals of the GPL is to cultivate a network effect of its own, to counter that of proprietary software. It's not that permissive licenses are better suited to become popular, but that they represent support of the proprietary status quo.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by cellularmitosis on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:59AM (#27457265)
The GPL does create a network effect, but in a way which ends up excluding large chunks or ecosystems from professional developers.

Back when I was just a Linux hobbyist, I loved the GPL. Then I got a job as a proprietary software developer. Now, GPL just means "stuff I can't use at work".

I would love to try and convince my boss and coworkers to implement a project in Scheme. But because the majority of the packages for most Scheme implementations are GPL'ed, it's a non-starter.

So Scheme (and lots of other pockets of FOSS) shall remain a weekends-only pipe dream :(

Re:You use more open source software than you think by nicoburns on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:05PM (#27453890)
As soon as someone else contributes, copyleft licenses also prevent you from using your own work in anything proprietary. So if you have side project that may potentially grow into a business if it takes off then permissive makes sense.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by contravariant on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:15PM (#27454606)
No license is going to prevent you from using your own work.

Of course if you accepted external contributions to your code under a copyleft license then you can't use that part freely, but that's kind of the point.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by sangnoir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:26PM (#27456036)
> ...you can't use that part freely, but that's kind of the point

The irony is that non-copyleft project author/maintainers want to reserve the right to exploit other people's work when they "grow the project into a business", but bellyache when Amazon "exploit" their permissively-licensed work. Freedom for me -- but not for thee.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by nicoburns on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:48AM (#27458453)
IMO extremely large businesses like Amazon cause quite a bit of harm to modern economies/societies. They reduce the diversity of alternatives, and cause a concentration of wealth.

That there is not a good standardised way to give preferential treatment to small companies does not mean it's unreasonable to want to.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by sangnoir on Friday June 11, 2021 @04:10AM (#27470548)
"Limiting Amazon's harm" is an honorable to put it - one which I do not agree is necessarily true. My cynical view is that Amazon is rich, and can afford to pay more, so a lot of projects are miffed that Amazon is not aiming a firehose of dollars at them for using code that they granted Amazon a license to use, but "not like that".
Re:You use more open source software than you think by nicoburns on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:45AM (#27458438)
> Of course if you accepted external contributions to your code under a copyleft license then you can't use that part freely, but that's kind of the point.

Well yes. But if you:

1. Want to accept external contributions 2. Think you might want to use the entire project (which may still be mostly your own work) in proprietary code in the future.

Then a permissive license is a lot easier than the alternatives.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by lupire on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:44PM (#27454279)
Why do you think you need proprietary software to run your business?

Especially if it's a hosted web app business?

Re:You use more open source software than you think by parafactual on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:16PM (#27454621)
Yeah, I see a lot of ways to monetize FOSS.

Providing paid support a la Red Hat, paying for hardware/cloud space, or even paid binaries if you think your customers won't bother to build from source.

(Yes, one can build from source then distribute free binaries, but maybe those same customers won't even go to the trouble of finding them?)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by goodpoint on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:24PM (#27455226)
Companies love unpaid labor with no strings attached. Being unable to proprietarize FOSS makes them unhappy.

It's not surprising that they invested a lot into spreading FUD around GPL and spreading the idea that weak licenses are "practical" while labeling GPL as "ideological".

Re:You use more open source software than you think by parafactual on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:34PM (#27456080)
I mean, of course companies don't like copyleft. It was individual developers that I found confusing.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by golergka on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:17PM (#27454022)
So I can use it at my job, and justify spending my employer-paid time working on open source.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by aroberge on Thursday June 10, 2021 @08:17AM (#27459770)
I write programs as a hobby. For most of my career, I have been teaching Math and Physics courses. The whole point of teaching is to get someone to learn something and use it as they see fit, with no constraint imposed upon them. I view the code I write the same way: if anyone finds something useful in it, I want them to be free to use it without constraint.

I write with other humans in mind, not companies.

I occasionally like to read other people's code to learn. However, in order to avoid any problems, this means that I stay away (much to my regret) from reading any GPL licensed code, no matter how interesting the project might look to me.

I admit to have been occasionally disappointed in the past when large parts of some of my work were plagiarized with no attribution (including by one commercial venture) ... but I prefer for my work to be free of barriers so that anyone interested can either learn from it or (more likely) get in touch with me with suggestions as to how to improve upon it.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by caramelcream on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:03PM (#27453870)
Wider adoption results in a healthier ecosystem. Also, don't forget that most of FOSS developers are employed somewhere and surely they want to use FOSS at their jobs.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by _def on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:34PM (#27453543)
You can base your business model around that. Support, certificates, Trainings, etc.

Of course that is not the case for the majority of projects like curl for example.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by mechEpleb on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:33PM (#27453528)
Getting it out there. If your goal is just to ensure that a well supported open source solution exists and people can use it instead of having nothing at all or only paid proprietary garbage, a permissive license makes far more sense.

If your goal is sticking it to the man and demolishing capitalism or whatever then it's different of course.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by logbiscuitswave on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:04PM (#27453880)
I’ve worked several jobs in the past where using reciprocal OSS (such as GPL) was expressly forbidden. This would leave us in the position of reinventing the wheel, buying something, or using something (possibly inferior) that’s more permissive.

(I guess in many ways this is a data point to support the “OSS work becomes just a source of free labor for large tech companies” thesis up thread.)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by parafactual on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:48PM (#27456145)
It might be the only pragmatic choice, so I'm not condemning developers or anything, but that would make me a bit uncomfortable with the company itself.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by sigjuice on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:19PM (#27454659)
So I take it Linux was not used at all in any shape or form?
Re:You use more open source software than you think by Stratoscope on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:04PM (#27455532)
I suspect that when GP said "using", they meant "incorporating it into your own code".

No one at any company I've heard of or been involved with cares if you simply use, i.e. run, Linux or other GPL software. That doesn't affect the licensing of your own software.

What they do care about is if you take the GPL software and incorporate it into your own product.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by sigjuice on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:46PM (#27464072)
I guess you are right. The OP said "buying" and I suppose in the trajectory my career has taken me the concept of buying code is foreign to me.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by ex_amazon_sde on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:42AM (#27462018)
You are ignoring the protections against "tivoization", patent trolling and passing software freedom down to the end users.

Often we are the end users. Because of permissive licensing phones, routers, iot devices have a lot of closed or otherwise locked own components that I cannot trust nor modify.

The same apply to SaaS.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by SQueeeeeL on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:43PM (#27453639)
Open source software is bizarrely sticking it to capitalism. RMS and his ilk developed these licenses pretty much because they wanted free shit out there with no stipulations. It's insane that anyone with skills would care enough to work on GNU instead of making 6 figures to write the same code for IBM. OSS kinda proves that humans are deep down pretty alright
Re:You use more open source software than you think by throw0101a on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:49PM (#27453710)
> RMS and his ilk developed these licenses pretty much because they wanted free shit out there with no stipulations.

Copyleft, having to release code diffs, is a stipulation / restriction.

MIT/BSD is the one without any stipulations / restrictions:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License

Depending on one's goals one may be better than the other.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by kekumu on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:14PM (#27454597)
For anyone not very familiar with copyleft, the actual goal is:

> My work on free software is motivated by an idealistic goal: spreading freedom and cooperation. I want to encourage free software to spread, replacing proprietary software that forbids cooperation, and thus make our society better. [1]

Free as in freedom for the users of the software to control, audit, and modify what runs on their hardware.

The stipulations are there to prevent people who aren't aligned with those goals from benefiting from (and working against) the work done by the community that believes in those goals.

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html

Re:You use more open source software than you think by throw0101a on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:38AM (#27459502)
Being forced to release source code is a restriction. Some people are okay with that, and others want totally unrestricted code available.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by morelisp on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:16AM (#27460344)
> others want totally unrestricted code available.

It's easy to give the lie to this, because the restriction they are unhappy with is the restriction against restricting others. Anyone complaining about that is just masking a demand of "free for me, but not for thee" - definitely _not_ "totally unrestricted."

Re:You use more open source software than you think by zxzax on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:58PM (#27454438)
Just a small correction -- The GPL does not require you to release code diffs. The requirement is that people who receive binaries from you are entitled to receive the source to that binary upon request.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by scythe on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:33AM (#27460544)
You're kind of underselling Stallman's vision. He realized early on (80s) that the users' control over the software running on their machines was intimately related to their personal freedom. Most of society has only started to notice this when rumors about apps and websites secretly accessing your microphone and camera started to spread in the late 2010s.

For Stallman, and the rest of us inspired by the copyleft movement, writing GPL software wasn't merely a way to impact the profits of capitalists. He would have been scarcely more satisfied with closed-source software written by a democratically organized cooperative and released for free. The goal was and is to ensure that users have the freedom to know what the code running on their machines is doing, and to alter its behavior if they wish.

That dream seems so distant today that people worry it may never be satisfied, but I have a more optimistic view. Someday, hardware generations will not be so rapid or represent such major improvements. That will create an opportunity for the GPL ecosystem to close the gap in functionality and provide alternatives that run on the hardware most people own. Mostly, the GNU project is always running behind on the hardware treadmill; keeping up with software functionality is easy by comparison.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by parafactual on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:41PM (#27456110)
What do you mean by "free shit with no stipulations"? As I see it, that would describe permissive licenses, which even allow you to build on software and sell it without giving back via source code. The GPL requires you to abide by some rules and "play fair".
Re:You use more open source software than you think by lupire on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:45PM (#27454297)
IBM pays some people to write GPL code.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by goodpoint on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:15PM (#27455155)
Spot on! The current problem of SaaS/Cloud companies taking away all the revenue of FOSS developers is the direct effect of weak licenses.

Some products like databases are now switching to AGPL but it takes a lot of effort to revert the trend now.