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Re:You use more open source software than you think by dkarras on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:34PM (#27453536)
I don't think many people are lamenting the fact that their project is popular and being used.

Because they can just... stop maintaining it if they wanted. They are completely free to do so.

Many developers like to feel useful, feel like they are solving an important problem in a suitable way. Some even want the fame associated with it, or the doors having such (a) project(s) opens (you use X? I wrote it, and maintain it - or people hunting you specifically because you are known to have created X).

The point is, the tradeoff between the feeling of being taken advantage of and feeling useful and fulfilled because of solving an important problem in a suitable way is controlled directly by the author / developer! If they feel it is not worth the effort, they can just stop!

Having a permissive license helps you gain popularity. Many people won't touch GPL derivatives for their business / side-project-that-might-turn-into-a-business so such a license can have an inhibiting effect in adoption. Developers generally aren't stupid, they know that and they choose more permissive licenses, because they want to be seen, they want their solution to be used. They maybe want the fame and open doors associated with having such a project take off. It is a trade-off under their control. They can stop with maintenance any time. Hell they can even change the license of future versions (if they have not started with a GPL-like license) if they want. So I don't see the problem here. Everything is under the developer's control. You can't have it both ways: The boost to popularity by having a no-strings-attached license, but reaping proportional profits from such an endeavor as if you had a restrictive license protected by a business entity.

If you give money (value) away for free, you'll be pretty popular. "I want to be easily popular as if I'm giving money (value) away for free, without actually giving money (value) away for free" does not make much sense.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by lmm on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:33PM (#27455730)
> Many people won't touch GPL derivatives for their business / side-project-that-might-turn-into-a-business so such a license can have an inhibiting effect in adoption. Developers generally aren't stupid, they know that and they choose more permissive licenses, because they want to be seen, they want their solution to be used. They maybe want the fame and open doors associated with having such a project take off. It is a trade-off under their control.

It's a race to the bottom, largely because developers aren't unionized. Developers who would do work under the GPL get undercut by those who are willing to do it for free.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by 3pt14159 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:47PM (#27454329)
I love OSS. I just think it should come with a cap. If a single stakeholder (shareholder, employee, bondholder, etc) is worth $1B USD or more, the license is $1m[0] a year. That way we all get to have fun, but the megagiants like Amazon actually have to pay something back to projects like Postgres. We'll get better security and a naturally progressive, opt-in tax on the largest of companies and investors.

[0] Or whatever, if it's a small library maybe $50k or maybe something that scales with market cap, etc. Throw lawyers at it.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by aloer on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:21PM (#27454681)
scaling with market cap and having a huge “free” tier is an interesting approach. Something like an official license requiring companies to pay 10k for each trillion $ market cap calculated on jan first of the current year

low complexity, low decision making overhead. it wouldn’t help for small or very specialized open source projects but the big ones that keep the world running are probably used in some way in all the big companies anyways so the total should come out somewhere in the range of 1-2 developer salaries (adjust the 10k above to match. no idea how many trillion+ companies there are right now)

edit: I overestimated how many there are. With 10k one would get to 50k this year. Numbers must be adjusted a bit :)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by version_five on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:50PM (#27454352)
You can make a license like that if you want to.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by sangnoir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:09PM (#27455956)
The problem is that developers hypocritically want to have it both ways: they want all of the upsides of a permissive license (wide adoptions), but none of the downsides (wide adoption by big tech companies without being paid).
Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:25PM (#27454709)
Just don't pretend that it's open source.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by 3pt14159 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:27PM (#27454735)
How is it not open source?
Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:30PM (#27454768)
Because it doesn't meet the Open Source Definition: https://opensource.org/osd

I think you're confusing open-source with visible-source.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by bigiain on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:58PM (#27455489)
It doesn't meet one definition that one advocacy group choose to use.

Other "open source" companies are somewhat more realistic and honest about the term and it's history: https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/open-source/what-is-open-so...

I'm not saying the OSI's objectives and motivations are bad, but they did not invent the term "open source", they were not the first to use it, and their ongoing attempts to gatekeep it's usage are - at least to me - tiresome.

(Having said that, I also find rms's hardcore free software stance tiresome, but I'm glad he chooses to dig his heels in so hard there, as an opposite-end-of-the-bellcurve outlier to counterbalance the vested commercial interests trying to extend and embrace the free software movement for commercial greed...)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by version_five on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:30PM (#27454760)
I would say it could be open source (defined as you can see the source code) but it's not free, as in it has restrictions.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:31PM (#27454773)
> open source (defined as you can see the source code)

But that's not what that's defined as.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by ddulaney on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:09PM (#27455098)
I define Open Source to mean that I can see the source code.

The OSI defines open source one way, and I just defined open source another way. This is an inconsistency that trips up lots of people on HN and elsewhere. There isn’t one definition, there are many, and calling “anybody but the mega-rich can use this for free; they have to pay” open source falls within some definitions but not others.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by josephcsible on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:11PM (#27455123)
https://xkcd.com/1860/

The OSI's definition is the widely accepted one. If you mean something else, then make up your own word. To redefine open source like you're trying to do just makes communication more difficult for no benefit.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by bigiain on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:03PM (#27455523)
OSI didn't invent the term, and weren't the first ones to use it.

Why shouldn't they be the ones required to "make up their own word"? "Open source" has a reasonable plain english meaning which doesn't automatically include all the requirements of OSI's "definition". I don't see why the simplest plain english interpretation shouldn't be considered "the real one".

You say OSI's definition is "the widely accepted one", I'm 100% certain that's not true if your sample group is representative of "english speakers" instead of "hacker news readers".

(And I'm pretty sure your linked xkcd supports my argument here more than yours.)

Re:You use more open source software than you think by morelisp on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:03AM (#27457753)
Your response is a bit ironic as OSI more or less did invent the term (causality-wise, rather much of the group that invented the term went on to found OSI), but attached an already-existing definition (of free software) to it.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by type0 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:07AM (#27458950)
> defined as you can see the source code

That's "source available"

Re:You use more open source software than you think by jasonhansel on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:39PM (#27453592)
Since widely-publicized OSS work can be a prerequisite for top jobs, it often isn't really a "free choice."

But if it is a choice, then it's a choice that undermines fellow workers. By working for free, you're taking away jobs from people who might genuinely need them and be unable to work for free.

In this way, OSS work can serve to entrench inequality by giving a hiring advantage to those with more time and resources, while reducing the salaried jobs available for others in the industry.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by senko on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:59PM (#27453820)
> Since widely-publicized OSS work can be a prerequisite for top jobs, it often isn't really a "free choice."

Which top jobs require you to be a widely-publicized OSS author?

I've only ever heard this to be a plus (which I believe is fair), not a requirement.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by smarterclayton on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:27PM (#27454118)
It’s not a requirement at Red Hat, because anyone can be converted to the open source religion. This surprised me when I started - I thought I would need to be indoctrinated, but then it just became normal to see open source as the only way to work.

That said, RH hires key contributors all the time (as do many companies), so being the maintainer of a project is definitely a plus.

Re:You use more open source software than you think by abnry on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:59PM (#27453817)
Is there really a shortage of tech jobs caused by open source projects?
Re:You use more open source software than you think by sangnoir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:19PM (#27456008)
I have no evidence at all, but I think open source projects create more jobs than it "destroyed" because it reduces the cost of doing businesses of tech startups at critical growth phases and makes them viable by allowing fewer employees to do more. Without open source, companies would employ more people per company, but have much fewer companies overall, IMO. Additionally, salaries would be much lower because skills wouldn't be easily transferable between jobs - hence lower competition for employees.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by paulryanrogers on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:03PM (#27455050)
I've wondered this for a long time. Or if it had a depressing effect on wages. FOSS certainly helps with productivity. Though I believe it's very likely also depressing wages and reducing the volume of software jobs.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by lupire on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:42PM (#27454256)
Lucky for you, top jobs hire by standard whiteboard quizzes.
Re:You use more open source software than you think by golergka on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:16PM (#27454015)
You don't have any obligation to pursue a top job, nor it is necessary for your survival.