News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by tlb on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:11AM (#27412047)
To extract 1 kg from 0.2 ppm seawater, you need to process 5e6 kg of water.

$5 of electricity at $0.09/kWh is 200 MJ, which is enough to pump that much water 40 m high, or push it through a membrane with 4 bar pressure drop.

So you can't do very much to seawater at that price point. Like many "scientists develop cheap ___" headlines, it may just cover part of the process and not the whole operation.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by _Microft on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:00AM (#27412243)
They discuss this on pages 3 to 5 of the paper if you want to read up on this. Here is an excerpt:

"Based on these data, we estimated the total electricity required to enrich 1 kg lithium from seawater to 9000 ppm in five stages to be 76.34 kWh. Simultaneously, 0.87 kg H_2 and 31.12 kg Cl_2 were collected from the cathode and the anode, respectively. Taking the US electricity price of US$ 0.065 per kWh into consideration, the total electricity cost for this process is approximately US$ 5.0. In addition, based on the 2020 prices of hydrogen and Cl_2 (i.e., US$ 2.5–8.0 per kg and US$ 0.15 per kg, respectively), the side-product value is approximately US$ 6.9–11.7, which can well compensate for the total energy cost. It should also be noted that the current Cl_2 utilisation capacity in the chlor-alkali industry is ~ 80 Mtons/year. Even in the case where all the world lithium capacity is produced from our extraction process, the amount of Cl_2 produced will be 3 Mtons, and so will have very little effect on the total market", from https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlepdf/2021/ee/d1ee00354...

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by LB232323 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:22AM (#27412343)
So it's both efficient and the electricity cost is covered by the profitablity of the side products.

Pretty amazing innovation, certainly a more sustainable solution than overthrowing the Bolivian government and murdering Native protestors.

To think that an entire mineral mining industry could be replaced by processing seawater is revolutionary.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by dr_dshiv on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:35AM (#27412410)
Do you remember this guy, Kanzius, who showed that you can burn saltwater when pumping it with radio waves? Yet, the citation trail seems dead because scientists assumed that he was a crank claiming he got more power out than he put in. No, he just demonstrated a really neat approach to electrodeless hydrolysis.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a2840/4271398/#:~:t....

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by _Microft on Sunday June 06, 2021 @08:00AM (#27412554)
The article contains a broken link to the paper but I think I found it on Sci Hub. It's short by the way, just three or four pages of own content:

https://sci-hub.do/10.1179/143307508/270875

Edit: it's a bit of a strange paper with a lot of talk about unrelated things (imo) but there seems to be this unexpected effect which might make it worthwhile to investigate it independently from what one thinks of this paper. The setup seems to be simple and cheap enough that there should not be huge obstacles to get easy and fast results.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by marcosdumay on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:18AM (#27412956)
Personally, I read it as "mostly unmodelled, difficult to calculate experiment behaves in a way no scientist ever predicted, but not very far from what simpler ones do".

If I was looking for something to research, I wouldn't pick this one. It's not strange enough to compensate for how hard it is to understand it. (But then, I wonder how I the photoelectric emission fits on that dimension...)

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by dr_dshiv on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:12AM (#27413288)
If I understand, you are saying you wouldn't try to empirically research this because 1. burning salt water isn't strange enough and 2. it would be difficult to calculate and model.

That seems reasonable and yet unfortunate. It seems like the kind of experiment that a scientist would try to undertake out of sheer curiosity.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by dr_dshiv on Sunday June 06, 2021 @08:36AM (#27412732)
Thanks for the edit. I view this all through the lens of the politics of science. Some radio technician figures out a really unexpected natural effect, it gets major news coverage by a scientifically illiterate press (claiming free energy), and the scientific mainstream pounce: "how foolish they were to think that energy could be extracted from water!" And yet (and this is the thing that makes me jump up and down), we still have a really unexpected property of nature! Study that shit, people! I might be wrong, but it seems that the reason the topic isn't studied—even to measure the inefficiency—is due to some unhealthy politics in modern science.

I expect it will first be studied by YouTubers like "the plasma channel".

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by gus_massa on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:35AM (#27413045)
> Study that shit, people!

From a practical point of view, It looks like an interesting demo, but I don't think it has too many applications. I only can imagine that it may be useful as a sterilization process, whatever virus or bacteria that is in the solution will be extremely unhappy with so much H2 and O2 around. The flame and the small risk of an explosion is a problem.

From a theoretical point of view, it's easy to model isolated small molecules. Big molecules or combination of molecules is exponentially more difficult, like in ~exp(5*N) where N is the number of atoms and 5 is an oversimplification. There are some approximations that reduce it to a polynomial time like ~(5N)^12 or ~(5N)^9 less if you use more approximations. And with more approximations you can calculate it in linear time that is very useful for biochemistry that are interested in big molecules. Anyway, most of these methods assume that atoms don't move, or don't move too much, or use a lot of simplifications.

Simulation water at the molecular level is a nightmare. You need to simulate many molecules, each one moving around, that form bounds between them that are not stable enough to simulate like a fixed length, but stable enough to be ignored. And now you need to add a strong electromagnetic field to the mix, and the nightmare is upgraded to the Freddy Krueger level.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by _Microft on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:43AM (#27413514)
There seem to be a lot of low hanging fruits to characterize the phenomenon, so I would not try to simulate the process yet. Dependence of the amount of produced gases on the concentration and type of salt, the temperature, radio frequency, input power seem very easy to check if the necessary equipment is available. Pick a few parameters and hand the task over to a bachelor/master student or maybe research assistant and see what results come out.

"Effects of different parameters on the efficiency of electrode-less water splitting", sounds like an acceptable topic for a bachelor thesis for example ;)

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by gus_massa on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:44PM (#27417034)
I agree, there are many interesting variables (temperature, concentration, frequency, shape of the container, localization of the beam, ...), and impurities/catalyzers open another huge amount of tweaking opportunities.

It's just that most papers pretend that the result has some practical or theoretical application, and I think it's difficult to get one.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by dr_dshiv on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:06AM (#27413247)
But isn't that challenge of simulation exactly why empirical study would be valuable?

I'd want to know how the Hydrolysis effect varies as a function of EM frequency and salt composition. Hypothetically, different EM frequencies could produce resonance effects in water. Basically, I'm curious how the flame might grow bigger at different EM frequencies.

If anyone has any access to EM equipment like this, I'd definitely pay $1000 to catalyze. Seriously! I haven't been this curious about a physics phenomena since I learned about sonoluminescent bubble implosions "Mysterious Glowing Bubbles". Seriously. https://www.newswise.com/articles/mysterious-glowing-bubbles

RIP Dr. Apfel, he was a big influence on me.

I know Alan McGaughey at CMU does water modeling at a molecular level, pretty cool stuff: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=HmNtygkAAAAJ&hl=en

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by pontifier on Sunday June 06, 2021 @01:16PM (#27414596)
The RF probably just turns the glass into a capacitor plate. The AC nature of RF helps to deal with the fact that glass is a poor conductor, so a DC field couldn't create much gas before the surface saturated with charge.

This should work without the RF stage using electrodes coated with glass, and using AC to drive it at high frequency.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by carapace on Sunday June 06, 2021 @01:45PM (#27414810)
http://www.rexresearch.com/kanzius/kanzius.htm Some news articles and patents.

(Rex Research is mostly crackpottery. But not all of it. The tricky bit is sorting the horse from the horseshit, eh?)

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by qayxc on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:52AM (#27412497)
If by "neat" you mean "inefficient", then yes.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by dr_dshiv on Sunday June 06, 2021 @08:02AM (#27412562)
By neat I mean "holy shit, the salt water is literally on fire"
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by ArkanExplorer on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:24AM (#27412083)
If you can piggyback on desalinization of water, some of this process becomes 'free'.

I wonder if we are wasting valuable brine as part of our established desalinization processes?

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by andi999 on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:50AM (#27419774)
Interesting point. Lets do the numbers. Supposedly desalination is 86.55 million m3/day (https://iwa-network.org/desalination-past-present-future/). 1m^3 is 10^3 kg. So 8610^9 kg desalinated water, I dont know the conversion rate, but lets say rougly 110^11kg water from sea pumped. Divided by 5e6 we have 2*10^4 kg/ day. 20 tons of lithum per day. Sounds a lot. That's roughly 8000 tons of lithium per year. Worldproduction is 80000 tons per year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/606684/world-production-... So while not insignificant it doesnt seem a game-changer. (I might have miscalculated a factor of 10 somewhere, probably..)
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by ncmncm on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:50AM (#27412197)
They include selling the H and Cl gases also produced to bring the net cost down to $5.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by devoutsalsa on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:29AM (#27412378)
It’d be cool if they could combine this with extraction of Uranium 235 for a more sustainable source of nuclear fuel.

EDIT: For more context, nuclear power could be a great tool in reducing carbon emissions. I read somewhere that mining Uranium 235 from seawater at scale would cost roughy 2x to 3x what it costs to get the fuel from the ground at today's prices. I was trying to say that if we're going through all of the trouble to extract Lithium from seawater, it'd be cool if extracting Uranium at the same time made both processes more economical.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by failwhaleshark on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:30AM (#27412382)
?
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by _Microft on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:34AM (#27412400)
Seawater contains uranium among other things:

"Seawater contains about 3.3 parts per billion of uranium by weight, approximately (3.3 µg/kg) or, 3.3 micrograms per liter of seawater.[6] The extraction of uranium from seawater has been considered as a means of obtaining the element.", from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_in_the_environment#Nat...

(Mining uranium is as environmentally unfriendly as other mining operations, just do a web search for "uranium mining".)

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by gus_massa on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:08AM (#27412899)
The trick here is to use a ceramic filter that have holes that are so small that only Lithium can pass through.

Actually the only "molecules" smaller than Lithium are Hydrogen and Helium. Helium is not a problem because it's too easy to pull apart and Hydrogen (H+ and H2) are not problem because H2 is another of the products.

(Actually^2 H+ is not isolated, it's combined with water in H3O+, but I guess the holes need some room for the water around the Li+ ions. The technical details are probably more complicated, but "small holes only allow H, He and Li to pass" is a good approximation.)

But Uranium atoms are huge. They are bigger than most atoms, and I'm not sure if the common form in seawater is a combination of Uranium and Oxygen. A hole that big will allow most mineral to pass, so you will just get brine. Using it in the other direction with holes just smaller than Uranium is also not very useful, because you will get Uranium mixed with a lot of crap, many of the contamination are not isolated atoms (that are mostly smaller) but molecules that combine a few atoms are are bigger.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by B1FF_PSUVM on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:20AM (#27413346)
> But Uranium atoms are huge.

And heavy. Some gravitational fractionation should do it.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by ncmncm on Sunday June 06, 2021 @02:04PM (#27414949)
Centrifuges, even, typically.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by failwhaleshark on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:53AM (#27413599)
Of course, there's precious metals and rare-earth elements in there too, but are they economically-viable to process?

Yes, I know all about the externalities of uranium mining as a portion of my extended family who lived in a particular house around the Four Corners/Durango area all died within a matter of years from horrible cancers due to contaminated drinking water.

https://www.ewg.org/research/170-million-us-drink-radioactiv...

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by 542458 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:50AM (#27412482)
The electricity cost is ~$5, the sale of H and Cl2 is separate from that. Pages 3-5 of the paper.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by redsummer on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:48AM (#27412193)
Isn’t Lithium an anti-depressant? If it’s extracted from drinking water, won’t you end up with miserable people?
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by swader999 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:20AM (#27412333)
Just pirates and fisherman would be affected but they are salty to begin with.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by failwhaleshark on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:28AM (#27412377)
No we're not, you bloody idiot!

Returns to mending nets and counting seagulls.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by beowulfey on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:11AM (#27412297)
OP you replied to was saying the remnant waste brine from desalination may contain valuable lithium.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by matheusmoreira on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:51AM (#27413139)
No, lithium is a mood stabilizer. It is mainly used to treat manic episodes in bipolar disorders and is not a particularly effective treatment for major depression.

I doubt drinking water contains anything close to therapeutic doses of lithium.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by muyuu on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:25AM (#27412093)
whoa I was making the exact same point simultaneously in a sibling comment
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by fridif on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:51AM (#27412201)
The idea is that when the cheap lithium is no longer available, this becomes the only viable alternative.

I remember in 2005 my earth science teacher told me "shale in north dakota will never be viable with all this saudi oil lying around"

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by einpoklum on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:14AM (#27412309)
IIAN, 5,000 tons of water is 5,000 cubic meters' worth, right?

Wouldn't this process also quickly reduce the local concentration of Lithium in the water surrounding the processing station? Making sustained operations difficult?

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by nkrisc on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:35AM (#27412413)
In 1891 Chicago built a water intake four miles offshore in Lake Michigan, with pipes under the lakebed. I bet we could do a lot better than that, over 100 years later.

Likewise between the tide and currents you might have sufficient mixing if new seawater.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by einpoklum on Sunday June 06, 2021 @08:42AM (#27412766)
If I'm in a bay, maybe not so much.

Anyway, like you said - "maybe".

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by nkrisc on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:51PM (#27417078)
Yeah I’m sure every location is totally unique in terms of currents and such, and would have to be investigated individually at any proposed site.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by heartbreak on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:06AM (#27412880)
We could repurpose offshore oil rigs.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by einpoklum on Sunday June 06, 2021 @11:01AM (#27413646)
It's still not clear that the mixing will be faster than the flow through the Lithium extractor, if that extractor needs 5000 m^3 / Kg of output, and wants to get to, oh, 1000 Kg / day.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by bigfudge on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:27AM (#27412373)
The sea is big, pipes can be long
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by muyuu on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:25AM (#27412090)
that would be a non-issue in existing desalination plants

sounds promising but papers tend to overpromise, so we'll see if it's viable - cheap and abundant lithium batteries would be a major breakthrough for renewables

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by endymi0n on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:56AM (#27412219)
While still significant, the impact of lithium cost on battery cost is commonly far overestimated:

"A 50% increase in lithium prices would for instance increase the battery pack price of a nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) 811 battery by less than 4%." [1]

Nevertheless, together with improvements in (low-cobalt) battery chemistry, this sounds like an important piece of the puzzle.

[1] https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-b...

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by tootie on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:07AM (#27413253)
I'm assuming there's other advantages in terms of supply chain. We can put saltwater lithium extractors anywhere and have them be mostly automated. I don't know much about conventional lithium extraction but mining anything tends to be dirty business for both workers and the environment.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by jokoon on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:56AM (#27412218)
It would be a breakthrough for vehicles, but not necessarily for the electrical network.

Batteries still have a lifespan, their manufacture emits CO2, and they need to be disposable or to be recycled.

Nuclear is still the best energy in terms of carbon.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by Retric on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:23AM (#27412349)
The manufacturing process indirectly produces CO2 in the same way the staff driving to a nuclear power plant produces CO2. Aka it’s all indirect and could be replaced with EV and clean energy.

Nuclear is a non starter from a cost perspective at this point. You get vastly more bang for the buck subsidizing battery backed up wind / solar which can actually load follow without becoming even more expensive.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by jokoon on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:12AM (#27413286)
> indirectly produces CO2 in the same way the staff driving to a nuclear power plant

The same way? Mining, processing, shipping, etc... There is a difference between "the same way" and an actual carbon accounting.

Money doesn't matter, only carbon matters. Nuclear is a long term investment, it doesn't mean it's more expensive.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by Retric on Sunday June 06, 2021 @02:50PM (#27415295)
First, Nuclear is more than 10c/kWh unsubsidized at 90% capacity factor, which only gets worse as you try and scale up. France got into the 70% range and they had countries to export to. Nuclear is not even vaguely competitive even without energy storage involved. Just the fuel rod lifecycle alone costs almost as much per kWh as solar. 24/7/365 security is only the tip of the iceberg when you look into why Nuclear is so stupidly expensive. Maintenance for example takes up roughly 1 month per year of operation and you can’t send the guards home.

Anyway, it’s the same in that their all indirectly producing CO2. In a full accounting all of those things that make nuclear expensive actually produce CO2 because construction equipment, mining to produce the parts to build a reactor, etc etc all produce CO2 in the current economy.

In fact if you do the full breakdown for all activities related to Nuclear Reactor Construction, Operation, and Decommissioning their a very significant CO2 source in large part because all economic activity is and their really expensive. Regardless of how easy to draw arbitrary lines that ignore say CO2 emissions from workers daily commutes etc.

The only way to move past that is to have serious energy storage that’s used for all equipment and thus very widespread adoption of cheap battery technology. At which point Nuclear costs become an even larger issue because cheap batteries tank the cost of battery backed up wind/solar. In the end far northern countries can make some use of Nuclear, but it’s a dead end technology without a significant role in actually solving climate change.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by ENIanDEM on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:25PM (#27416921)
Some pretty wild unsourced claims masquerading as facts.

As with pretty much any energy source, (including wind, solar, gas..) nuclear tends to get cheaper the more you build. You can look up FOAK vs NOAK and note the curves. Not sure what you're referring to re difficulty of increasing %share?

How are you measuring "fuel rod lifecycle"? And how does that possibly comparable to "$/kWh solar"?

Here's [0] a good source for some facts. You should note that accounting for the whole lifecycle of mining/processing/operating/defueling/decommissioning, nuclear is ~1/4 of the emissions of solar. And this is only considering electricity; we still have 2-3x the kwh to source for our heating requirements. You're suggesting we get that all sorted with solar & wind too?

0 - https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and-the...

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by Retric on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:43PM (#27418449)
First your source is heavily biased, dig into the numbers they use and they skip for example workers commuting emissions as nobody lives within walking distance of a reactor. Making their comparison absolutely meaningless.

More importantly nuclear very specifically gets more expensive as you ramp up the percentage of grid energy your supplying. For a simple fact check look at the capacity factor of French nuclear reactors, for example:

France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chooz_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Capacity factor 70.6% and around 700 full-time workers

USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callaway_Nuclear_Generating_St...

Capacity Factor: 87.70% (lifetime)

Lower capacity factors directly translate into higher costs as you still need to pay for the building and security guards etc, you just don’t generate as much energy from identical infrastructure.

PS: If you don’t want to do the leg work just compare national averages around 2000-2005 and then realize France needed to import and export a lot of electricity because they simply couldn’t afford to operate in isolation at 70+% nuclear generation.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by jokoon on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:42AM (#27412167)
If you plug yourself to nearby nuclear plant, I guess it's possible to make electricity much cheaper, as long as you can plan your energy consumption.
Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by XorNot on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:21AM (#27412978)
There's no real need though with this: anything where the product is not on-demand electrical power can and should be able to be run off of intermittent solar or wind power.

Amortized over a year, letting the plant shut down because it's cloudy a few days should be fine.

Re:Scientists develop ‘cheap and easy’ method to extract lit... by nabla9 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:04AM (#27412255)
In other words lithium from the seawater adds 0.5% into the battery price.

(Assuming lithium battery cost is USD 100/kWh and 100 g of Lithium metal (not LCE) per kWh)