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Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by SquareWheel on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @07:51PM (#27375448)
We ask our kids to do it when they go to school. It doesn't seem fair if we're unwilling to do the same.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by koolba on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:05PM (#27375543)
There’s plenty of pointless and counterproductive things we insist our children do that we do not mandate for adults.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by sneak on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @10:11PM (#27376452)
Wearing a mask when around others during a pandemic is neither pointless nor counterproductive.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by jackling on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @11:10PM (#27376822)
I believe his intention was pointing out that forcing kids go to school and be enforce them to wear masks is pointless and counterproductive.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by sneak on Thursday June 03, 2021 @10:33AM (#27381982)
Fun fact: a few minutes after posting this, I received the following via email from an anonymous protonmail account named "groyptech":

Subject: You're a subhuman, worthless, imbecile maskie

> Wear it forever, you worthless, subhuman animal who doesn't deserve to live.

This culture war is getting out of hand. Imagine sending something like this to a stranger because of their clothing choices.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by ryan93 on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @11:38PM (#27376982)
There is a vaccine
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by xdennis on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:58AM (#27379065)
Multiple even.

There's a man in Romania who did three different vaccines (by lying) and wanted to do more before he was arrested.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by the_local_host on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @07:58PM (#27375494)
School, and the socialization that occurs there, is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Work is generally just work, it's not like your personal development suffers if you skip it.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by andrei_says_ on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:05PM (#27375544)
In a household with two teenagers one couldn’t go back to school while the other one flat out refused to.

So, 50% of the kids don’t want the socialization.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by mikepurvis on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:09PM (#27375566)
My kid also sometimes doesn't want to brush his teeth or eat his broccoli.

Part of childhood is doing things that adults insist is good for you even if you don't want to.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by mmcconnell1618 on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @09:11PM (#27376031)
Some people have a gene that makes broccoli much more bitter than it is to other people. Some people find 8 hours in the office harder to take than others. I agree with your point that sometimes we have to teach children to do things that are not fun in the short term for long term gain but not everyone has the same requirements.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235829/

There are plenty of people who have found remote work much more productive and others who are really wishing they could be back in the office. I hope that employers take the pandemic as an opportunity to learn about different working styles and create more flexible working arrangements that can accommodate all types of people.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by mikepurvis on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @09:45PM (#27376277)
I totally agree. I'm someone who struggled at first but has since found it really good, and I think would ultimately choose the very sort of 2/3 scheme being discussed by these large companies— in office for meetings and team bonding, home for focus and flexibility.

But my parent comment was specifically with respect to the business about part of school being the socialization stuff, and if it's relevant whether or not your kids "want" that.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by astrange on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @09:47PM (#27376284)
The reason you used to think Brussels sprouts were bitter and then “got over it” is they actually were bitter and since then they’ve been improved to taste better.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by mikepurvis on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @10:00PM (#27376378)
The famous NPR story on this: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/10/30/773457637/fr...

Though part of it is definitely also that our parents all boiled them, and bitter or otherwise, they're just plain better when broiled or pan-fried.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by dougmwne on Thursday June 03, 2021 @02:55AM (#27377991)
Adults are also less sensitive to bitter flavors.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by new_realist on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:09PM (#27375575)
They also don’t want to clean their room.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by andrei_says_ on Thursday June 03, 2021 @03:15AM (#27378095)
If it’s their room why would they be forced to maintain it to another person’s preferences?

My comment was about this mythical socializing that kids presumably needs so much.

Not all of them do.

School as an institution exists to free up housewives to participate in the workforce and maximize employers’ profit while preparing cheap workforce by giving a minimal education to the kids. Any benefits for the children are secondary - let’s not buy in too much into the PR.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by gryn on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:11PM (#27375594)
you seem to be overestimating school both in general and its social aspect.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by dcolkitt on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @11:52PM (#27377039)
At least in Florida, my kids were never required to wear a mask to school.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by rubyn00bie on Thursday June 03, 2021 @09:35AM (#27381075)
Gross. What a fucking horrible place to live.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by dcolkitt on Thursday June 03, 2021 @10:29AM (#27381891)
The proof is in the pudding. Covid death rates were identical to California. I don't care about signaling, I care about results. Scientific research has consistently confirmed that school age children are responsible for a de minims fraction of Covid transmission.[1]

[1]https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2006100

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by rantwasp on Thursday June 03, 2021 @11:15AM (#27382561)
jfc. comparing yourself to CA? really? compare yourself with places that managed covid properly (even within the US)

also, you point at Iceland. Do you understand that the people there don’t have the generic diversity you normally have in other places? How would you feel if the parent of another kid at your school died of covid as a result of your little one passing it around?

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by oogabooga123 on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @07:53PM (#27375465)
Crabs in a bucket.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by amyjess on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @09:41PM (#27376240)
Children should not be in in-person school until either the vaccine is widely available to children as young as 5 or SARS-CoV-2 is completely eradicated worldwide.

Since this will take a long time, the government can kill two birds with one stone by bulldozing every school in the country and building 130-story skyscrapers full of affordable housing on their sites, solving both the school question and the housing problem at the same time.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by jsnk on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @07:59PM (#27375496)
We should stop kids from wearing the masks. The covid risk for the kids are miniscule and masks do not stop covid anyway.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by martimarkov on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:11PM (#27375591)
Factually incorrect - both statements.

Minuscule (if we just take it at face value) is not the same as none. If a kid dies then there is a risk. Plus it depends on what I consider to be high risk. If a kid dies from preventable causes then for me that’s high risk environment.

Kids also spread the disease even we ignore the risk for them. So that means that it’s an increase of the risk for everyone else. Kids also interact with their grandparents in a lot of cultures quite frequently which is the highest risk group.

Mask decrease the probability of spreading or contracting COVID.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by orangecat on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:44PM (#27375826)
Minuscule (if we just take it at face value) is not the same as none. If a kid dies then there is a risk.

This isn't a useful classification; literally everything we do has some risk. 300 Americans under 18 have died from Covid (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-...), which is insignificant when compared to deaths from accidents, and not much higher than pre-Covid flu deaths (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2019-2020/2019-20-pediatr...).

Kids also interact with their grandparents in a lot of cultures quite frequently which is the highest risk group.

At least in the US, their grandparents should have been vaccinated months ago.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by chrisrogers on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:15PM (#27375622)
Masks are critical for dampening the potential for spread. The goal is not entirely to mitigate risk for the kid themselves, but of spread to their household that leads to increased likelihood of deaths.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by SllX on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:42PM (#27375813)
At this point, for those households, all I have to say to them is get vaccinated or STFU.

San Francisco sits at 60% fully vaccinated with most of the Bay Area in the same range; only Solano County lags very far behind at 39% fully vaccinated.

If between now and September, we can’t get society vaccinated to the point that kids can attend school 5 days a week without a mask, then we either need to do some full on Union busting or it’s time to start leaving the unvaccinated behind and let them take their lives into their own hands. Will that suck for those that for some reason can’t? Yes, but we can’t keep society in a holding pattern for them forever.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by olliej on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:16PM (#27375629)
seatbelts don't stop people dying in car crashes, hospitals don't stop people dying from injuries,
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by 0xbadcafebee on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:14PM (#27375621)
https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/coron... https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/...

The risks are lower, not miniscule. Some are also vulnerable to MIS-C. Masks do not stop covid for adults either, should adults stop wearing masks? (No.) Children are also potentially infectious.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by desine on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @07:56PM (#27375481)
I would never ask my kids that and I would try to find a school that does not enforce a mask policy.

Especially with children, learning non verbal communication is very important.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by smoldesu on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:00PM (#27375511)
I would argue that your children will learn non-verbal communication even better with masks on. It encourages alternative methods of conversing and challenges you to be a better listener and more attentive student. Honestly I don't know why we didn't do this in elementary school just for the hell of it!
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by desine on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:08PM (#27375559)
Call me a backwards traditionalist but I prefer to keep social skill development that has worked for millennia.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by kelnos on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:22PM (#27375675)
What we now call "school" has barely existed for centuries, let alone millennia. Pretty sure kids were much better socialized prior to our current state of primary education.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by shdbdjd on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @10:25PM (#27376559)
Pretty sure these school-less kids spent all day with their parents, siblings, cousins and peers instead of staring at a video lecture.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by desine on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:30PM (#27375739)
Did kids wear masks while socializing before we invented school?
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by SilverRed on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @10:07PM (#27376422)
Did kids wear uniforms or learn on whiteboards and laptops?
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by martimarkov on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:13PM (#27375615)
That’s how websites like this one came about actually: “ backwards traditionalist”. Also the internet, ICE, industrial revolution, etc. We just kept doing what worked for millennia.
Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by 0xbadcafebee on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @08:19PM (#27375658)
> learning non verbal communication is very important

You're right. There's absolutely no way kids could learn non-verbal communication if they had to wear a mask for several hours a day. It's not like literally everyone in Japan and China has been wearing face masks for 20 years.

Re:Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starti... by JetAlone on Wednesday June 02, 2021 @09:10PM (#27376023)
I work in Japan. Before 2019 It wasn't even figuratively everyone, and it wasn't all the time. Wearing masks was done for many reasons sure, the most common reasons being: -If you genuinely felt sick. -If you wanted to avoid wearing makeup. -If you wanted to conserve moisture/heat for your face. -If you had some kind of social aversion.

Most of my Japanese coworkers take their masks off at their desks these days. People don't like wearing masks all day, even when it was already part of the local culture they grew up in.

I don't know how masks will affect non verbal communication. I imagine the next generation will come out of this having adapted more to detect expressions in the eyes and shifts in the corners of the face. For children with severe ASD I would expect it to seriously impede their growth in interpreting facial expressions.