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Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by kogepathic on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @09:18AM (#27290119)
Valve's track record with non-VR hardware is, to put it politely, not good.

Seven years after launching the Steam machine (2014) initiative, there are no Steam machines available for sale. [1]

Both the Steam Controller (2015-2019) and Steam Link (2015-2018) are discontinued and cannot be purchased, despite consistently positive reviews from users. [2]

As other commenters have noted there are already numerous "Switch-like, but x86" products that exist, and it's unclear to me what innovation Valve can bring to the space.

IMHO if Valve wants to be taken seriously in the hardware market, they need to stop pulling a Google and actually support/iterate/not discontinue their existing hardware products (before someone adds that they did support these through firmware updates, I mean updating the hardware to keep up with the times, Steam Link with apps or 4K, etc).

[1] https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steam_machines

[2] https://store.steampowered.com/search/?category1=993

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by schmorptron on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @09:36AM (#27290305)
That being said, they did support both the Steam Controller and Link for a very long time, and the Steam Controller continues to be used by many (The configurator and services for sharing the configurations work all the same today). Steam Link has mostly been replaced by software solutions like an Android App, or it being straight up built into some TVs.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by chimpansteve on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:25AM (#27290865)
I've got a hardware Link - it's still being supported now. It had an update a couple of weeks ago.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by alias_neo on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:18PM (#27292422)
Yes, but I've had 4K monitors and 4K TV for almost as long as the Link has existed. It very quickly became useless to me the moment I upgraded to a 4K TV. The Steam controller is also an utterly horrible UX so the pair were just a waste of money that sat in a drawer until I stuck them on eBay.

A 4K Steam Link should have been an obvious iteration, and a controller with actual buttons and sticks (I half-joke about the controller, I know some love its touch nature, I just hated it, could never keep my thumbs in the right spot).

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by ThatMedicIsASpy on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:16PM (#27296218)
Then don't buy a steam controller? Why release something you can buy. And you can choose the layout (analog stick) or size xbox/ps4,ps5

The controller is amazing and enables non controller games to be played with one. This doesn't stop me from using another controller for emulators.

[dead]
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by alias_neo on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @02:58PM (#27294625)
Ive been PC gaming at 4K for several years now. Who mentioned consoles?

I'm not sure why you saw my want for 4k visuals in the single player, visual, story based games I prefer to play, as an opportunity to attack me personally. Perhaps read the rules or go back to Reddit or wherever that attitude is welcome.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by joshschreuder on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:36AM (#27300642)
Didn’t the Steam Link stream video from a full on PC? I’m not sure the 4K encoding and streaming in near-realtime story is particularly good even today, let alone a year or two ago when a 4K Steam Link might have been a possible hardware iteration.

Though they could have done 4K UI / other apps like an Android TV device I suppose.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by alias_neo on Thursday May 27, 2021 @11:39AM (#27304370)
That's correct, the Steam Link is a thin client for your gaming PC.

From a consumer perspective, people have been rocking 4K TVs and 4K PCs for a few years, and even consoles have been outputting 4K (even if they're rendering less) for a while, so one would hope to have seen some sort of 4K offering.

I can see discussions on the Steam forums as far back as 2016 of people streaming 4K in-home from PC to HTPC or similar, so it's certainly _possible_, even 4-5 years ago.

I've done some 4K streaming from my gaming PC to laptop hooked up to TV in living room in the past without any (more) issues than I usually have being a purely Linux gamer.

According to a topic near the top of the Raspberry Pi / Steam Link, Steam Forum, 4K is _possible_ (no indication of what it looks/feels like) with a Pi 4B these days.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:32PM (#27309414)
With a username like "DeliriumTrigger", I strongly doubt he's talking in good faith.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by DeliriumTrigger on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:42AM (#27313387)
It's a reference to a song Sohcahtoa82.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by maxsilver on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:28AM (#27290898)
I agree, Valve needs to better support hardware to build trust. But I think some perspective is worth mentioning.

Every Valve hardware device has had a longer maintenance and support lifecycle than any Google Nexus/Pixel device ever sold. Valve has consistently been better than Google about their hardware + software lifecycles.

It's totally fair to compare the two, but that doesn't necessarily make them equivalent. Valve's track record isn't good, but it's not bad either -- it's not like Google's.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by jsnell on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:24AM (#27291729)
Going by the dates on Wikipedia, the 2015 Chromebook Pixel had 6 years and 3 months of updates. The Pixelbook will have 6 years and 6 months, the Pixel Slate 7 years and 9 months, and the Pixelbook Go 6 years and 9 months.

1st gen Chromecast stopped getting feature updates after 6 years, but as far as I can tell is still in scope for security fixes. 2nd gen Chromecast seems to still be fully supported 5.5 years after release with no EOL announced yet.

These all seem like very reasonable amounts of time. How long do you think support should actually last?

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by toast0 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:10PM (#27292336)
Really, an x86 laptop should get software updates until the wheels fall off, or something actually needs a CPU extension that's not present.

If you want to be petty, don't add new quality of life features to devices past the sell by date, like say no Android apps on older Chromebooks, even if they've got the hardware virtualization support needed. But when you kill the existing printer service, it's kind of rude to not push the replacement local printer daemon, or leave a half-ass version that doesn't really work either.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by TulliusCicero on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:34AM (#27290973)
That's silly. The point is that the series of products has been discontinued; if Valve had a v2 version of the Steam Link or Steam Controller, nobody would be talking about this.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by maxsilver on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:56AM (#27291299)
A company is allowed to iterate on products, and yes that sometimes includes discontinuing a specific product, but that's not necessarily the same as abandoning a market.

Nintendo has discontinued the GameBoy / DS line. Because they now sell the Switch Lite, which is their new way to solve that problem. You can argue "Nintendo sucks, they discontinued their handhelds, we can't trust them on hardware", and they sort-of have. But they gave that product line 10 years of support, and they haven't abandoned those folks, the Switch Lite exists for them now to bridge over to the new mobile gaming market. Not all "discontinuings" are of equivilant weight as Google's product-killings.

Steam doesn't sell a Steam Controller, true. Because much of the Steam Controller stuff now supports nearly any controller (Switch Pro / DualShock 4 / Xbox One XINPUT, including the full accessibility controller / etc). Yeah, it's not quite the same as the Steam Controller (no touchpad joysticks), but they didn't abandon that market. And every Steam Controller ever sold is still fully supported in software, even in new games made this year (6 years after launch).

Steam doesn't sell a Steam Link. But they didn't abandon it, they upgraded it. Steam Link now works on Windows, Mac, Linux, Apple iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Android TV + Android Phones, Samsung Smart TVs, and such. They don't sell you their own box anymore, because that would be super redundant, most of the TV boxes people already own can run Steam Link already, and they continue to support Steam Link on many different clients to this day. Last time I checked, even original v1 Steam Links are still fully supported in all software + service (6+ years after launch).

---

In comparison, Google often just hard up kills stuff. Google Reader died, replaced by nothing. Android Things died, replaced by nothing. Google Cloud Print died, replaced by nothing. There's an entire website dedicated to just listing random stuff Google's killed - https://killedbygoogle.com/ . At least half of those products or services have no graceful fallover or upgrade path to anything else.

I get that it's a fair comparison. But I strongly believe it's not an equivalent one. As someone who has bought plenty of Google and Valve hardware over the years, I'd be a lot happier with Google as a company if they put even just half the effort on the support and maintenance lifecycle for their products, that Valve already does for nearly everything they touch.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by FemmeAndroid on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:17AM (#27290771)
To be clear, it's not like there were never steam machines for sale, but manufacturers stopped making them.

Here, you can see five for sale in 2016. https://web.archive.org/web/20160225105722/https://store.ste...

I don't know that Valve were ever going to make physical devices themselves (other than the 100 they made for beta testers.) From pretty early on, and definitely by Steam Dev Days 2014, it seemed to me like they were trying to make a platform for hardware manufacturers to build linux computers made for gaming, rather than manufacturing their own computers.

As for the Steam Controller, and Steam link, I completely agree. Steam Link was a poor showing, and the Steam Controller, while neat, really could have used a V2 upgrade.

More generally, I don't know that Valve has made a truly successful product or game other than maybe Halflife Alex in well over a decade. And even with Alex, the player base is so limited due to being a VR exclusive.

It's pretty sad.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by rightbyte on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:56AM (#27291307)
I was going to say Portal 2 but realized that it is from 2011 ...

Dota 2 is atleast barely in a decade from 2013. But ye, it is underwelming.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by loup-vaillant on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:10PM (#27297275)
> Halflife Alex

Alyx. Sounds the same, but this spelling has the right gender.

> And even with [Alyx], the player base is so limited due to being a VR exclusive.

I have played it, and am currently replaying it with developer comments on. There's a reason it's a VR exclusive. There is no way this could transfer over a flat screen.

VR interactions are fundamentally different. Motion sickness severely constrain how many players may move about (it gets better with practice, but Alyx is aimed at beginners). The ability to pick up objects and throw them about is crucial to immersion. The kind of weapons that work in VR are different (1 handed mostly). Pacing is different we move slower in VR than we do in a flat screen FPS, often by a factor of 5. This modify level design and how to manage tension. Even combat must be paced slower, especially at the beginning where players have yet to reload their guns seamlessly (requiring gestures is more immersive, but there's a learning curve, and doing it under duress requires serious training).

A flat screen port of Half Life: Alyx would not be a good game. Most rooms would feel cramped. Some parts of the game would be cumbersome. Others like the Jeff chapter (Jeff is an unkillable monster with very good hearing) would swing between being overly punishing or way too easy. Many puzzles would have to be cut or replaced by something else. Some weapon features like an aiming laser would not even make sense (unless you remove the aiming dot at the centre of the screen, making aiming way too punishing). An inventory of 2 items (plus ammo) would feel limited for no good reason the player can see (one item per wrist is an obvious good reason in VR).

Some games, like vehicle simulators (car, plane, spaceship…) can indeed have good flat screen and VR version. Standing first person games however cannot. The difference between a keyboard/mouse/gamepad and a pair of knuckles/Vive/touch is too great to compensate for, in either direction.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by juanuys on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:41AM (#27300676)
> Alyx. Sounds the same, but this spelling has the right gender.

Our female friend Alexandra introduces herself as Alex.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by loup-vaillant on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:16AM (#27300851)
Oops, now I remember that one of my classmates back in middle school had the exact same name.

I missed an opportunity to shut up, there.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by CivBase on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:20AM (#27291672)
I own a Steam Controller, Steam Link, and a Valve Index. They're all excellent devices and I really wish I had purchased a second Steam Controller and Steam Link when they were clearing their inventory. Even after discontinuing the hardware, the devices have continued to function as well as they ever have (actually even better thanks to continued updates).

I'm not surprised Valve has trouble continuing to produce hardware with low sales volumes. That said, they have certainly proven themselves to me with the quality of their devices so this one naturally has my attention. I don't buy products until reviews are out, but this one sounds pretty good on paper. The GPD Win 3, Aya Neo, and One Xplayer have all already proved the concept is viable and I'm excited to see Valve's take on it.

Also, to be fair the whole reason they stopped making Steam Links is because there are many other products out there now which can run the Steam Link software. Their hardware offering simply became redundant. There's no shame in discontinuing a product which no longer makes sense for the overwhelming majority of potential buyers.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by michaelt on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:46AM (#27292042)
Valve's efforts in hardware (and Linux support) are motivated by getting leverage in negotiations with Microsoft.

After all, Microsoft could pull an iOS and insist on a cut of all sales on Windows - or make the microsoft store the only way to distribute software.

Like a pilot with a parachute, they'll dutifully maintain it - but they hope not to need it.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by mobiledev2014 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:52AM (#27291245)
"Consistently positive reviews from users" are not enough.

Steam Link became obsolete, and the controller just didn't sell (despite being excellent IMO!)

This could see a similar fate, or it could be the breakout hit made possible by their learning from past hardware

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by reincarnate0x14 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:12AM (#27291545)
Steam controller suffered from doing too much, I think. People want plug-in and go from their couch games, having a fully programmable all-singing all-dance super controller turned out to be more effort than most wanted to deal with.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by brundolf on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @09:25PM (#27298300)
The main value-prop for the steam controller was its touch pads, which allowed you to play mouse-based games from the couch (in an era when controller support for PC games was spotty). They were a cool idea, and they worked, but what ended up happening is all the games just added support for regular controllers, and that was just a better experience.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by ThatMedicIsASpy on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:21PM (#27296264)
Steams built in controller customization features are worth it alone - for every controller. No digi pad makes them bad for retro games but I have others for that.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by 22c on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:06PM (#27297725)
> the controller just didn't sell

From my perspective, the controller was never sold. I could not buy it anywhere, I am assuming they were only made in a relatively small batch and sold mostly in mainland US.

I had been looking since it was released for a place to buy it at a reasonable price, but could only find exorbitantly priced resellers that would ship from USA.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by ihuman on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @09:40PM (#27298390)
They sold at least 1.3 million steam controllers [1]. That's relatively small compared to the 3 major console's controllers, but it's still a lot. IIRC the only place Valve officially sold it was on Steam itself. Based on forum posts from the time and Valve's Index shipping FAQ, they could ship it to the USA and Europe. While you can't buy it there anymore, its store page is still up [2]

[1] I can't link it directly, so look for "Steam Controllers are played with a diverse set of games" https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail...

[2] https://store.steampowered.com/app/353370/Steam_Controller/

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by 22c on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:47AM (#27300703)
>IIRC the only place Valve officially sold it was on Steam itself.

As far as I know, that's correct, but it was region locked. You could not officially buy it where I live.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by faitswulff on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:56AM (#27291298)
Valve has the same problem Google has: no new venture will ever have the same margins as their primary cash cow and therefore won't be worth maintaining.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by e_y_ on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @04:15PM (#27295510)
On the other hand, they need to protect themselves from threats to their cash cow. Hardware and operating systems play a part in that, which is why Google needs Android to ensure access to mobile eyeballs.

Valve created Steam Machines as a hedge against the Windows Store becoming like the App Store (walled garden) but neither took off. Whether VR will become a major part of gaming is yet to be seen, although Facebook has invested heavily in their Oculus Quest ecosystem which does not require Steam or Windows.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by hobs on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:57AM (#27291328)
And this is why you separate your business units so that your hardware peeps can manage their own P/L.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by bryanlarsen on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:17AM (#27291638)
All of those are still supported. Pulling a Google would require them to stop supporting them.

Everybody stops building things that don't sell well. Very few continue supporting them.

I would not hesitate to buy hardware from Valve.

Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by baq on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:30PM (#27292576)
steam controller is amazing if only due to the backside buttons. these are apparently patented by a patent troll.
Re:Valve is making a Switch-like portable gaming PC by tlhunter on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:18AM (#27291645)
Differentiation might include some sort of game+device compatability badge or certification, built in steam controller and all that customization, and game discounts/rental program when played on the device.