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Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by eecc on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:13AM (#27246711)
That’s what Wiener suggests in Uncanny Valley, when she describes the windfall when Microsoft bought the GitHub shares she had the option to buy during her time there.

It wasn’t life-defining, plus she noticed that many other employees didn’t have enough savings to actually exercise.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by barrkel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:35AM (#27246898)
The way it should happen with a liquidity event is that you simultaneously exercise your options and sell them, pay off the taxes and bank what's left over.

Savings should only come into it if you're leaving before the liquidity event.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by hibikir on Saturday May 22, 2021 @01:15PM (#27248449)
But that is a large problem today, because you have no idea when, if ever, the liquidity event is going to happen. There are companies that spend a whole lot of time private, and if said company is going well, it's going to be growing so fast that in 4 years, it might be unrecognizable. Even if you love the job you joined, you might hate the equivalent a few years later, and you probably still don't have a liquidity event.

Quite a few years ago, a well known company was sending offers where the exercise cost of the shares was around $200k, plus whatever fun you'd have with AMT at exercise time. The company still hasn't seen an IPO, and I know quite a few people that didn't exercise their entire allocation just because it was just way too expensive for something illiquid... and that was with a company that was going (and still is!) going very well. Today you'll find companies that went for a decade without a liquidity event, and where a whole lot of options that were well in the money went back to the company, unused.

Options would be far more worthwhile if there was a standing offer to, on departure, sell the options back to the company at departure time, but we all know this isn't how it works. So you end up in situations when two people join a company and leave at the same time, and their savings separate their final outcomes by 8 figures, because one could buy the shares and wait the necessary X years for the liquidity event, when someone else couldn't.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by surfsvammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:51AM (#27247066)
That’s kind of how it worked out when we sold our company. All the transactions happened simultaneously so the only real payments was the net of it all. Both business and tax lawyers where involved to set up that whole process.
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:40AM (#27246953)
> Savings should only come into it if you're leaving before the liquidity event.

Which is another way some startups screw people. If the company is not willing to budge on the "standard" 90-day exercise window, there shouldn't be any negotiation. Just walk away.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by hellcow on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:48AM (#27247029)
There are two types of options, NSO and ISO. You want ISO as an employee because it's better for taxes, but that has a 90-day exercise window set by the IRS. You can push for yourself paying higher taxes in exchange for more flexibility, but it's a tradeoff.

https://carta.com/blog/pte-90-day-window/

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by rjzzleep on Saturday May 22, 2021 @11:14AM (#27247308)
Zach Holman one of the first github employees didn't get to exercise any of his options for the aforementioned reasons. When they tell you to throw your life away to believe in the vision, nobody tells that 24 y/o to get a lawyer to understand what that actually means.

He compiled a list of startups with sane exercise windows:

https://github.com/holman/extended-exercise-windows

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by robocat on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:48PM (#27249715)
At the bottom of that link: “It's worth noting that Andreessen Horowitz has come out in strong favor of the 90 day window. If you feel strongly about extended exercise windows, it might be worth considering whether a16z portfolio companies are a good fit for you.” with a link to https://a16z.com/2016/06/23/options-timing/

The a16z link is astonishingly self-serving. Their top line solution was: “One existing solution to the ‘dead equity’ problem has been — and still can be — to make exceptions where appropriate for certain exiting employees. In fact, employers make exceptions all the time for certain employees, depending on their contribution to the company, critical skill set, and so on.” Riiiiiiight - asking nicely for a handout when you are quitting is a great strategy!!

And I would love to know how they come to this conclusion “In our model, we estimate that moving from the current 90-day window to a 10-year window will cost the average remaining employee as much as 80% in incremental dilution.” - just, wow.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by alasdair_ on Saturday May 22, 2021 @12:13PM (#27247913)
It’s completely possible to have ISOs that convert to NSOs past the 90 day window.

The last unicorn I worked for had a ten year exercise window after employment ended.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by novok on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:57PM (#27249784)
ISOs also don't save you from the AMT trap, so they're not really that useful.
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by enra on Sunday May 23, 2021 @12:58AM (#27252558)
I think the AMT fear is overblown, you can avoid it in most situations, especially if you exercise early
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by adflux on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:18AM (#27246758)
Couldnt a bank front the cash to exercise the options? Not familiar with the matter but it seems like an easy thing to get a loan for
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by eecc on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:24AM (#27246818)
I guess it’s still a question of borrowing money for a speculative investment, you just get a significant discount that makes profit more likely.

Depending on your indebtedness (outstanding student loans, mortgages) savings and current earnings a bank could still refuse to lend you enough money, if at all

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by adflux on Saturday May 22, 2021 @11:46AM (#27247603)
Whats speculative about exercising options, dont you know the exercise price and market value?
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by wayoutthere on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:33AM (#27246886)
If you’re making a high enough salary to be getting enough options that you can’t afford to exercise them, you’re making enough to borrow about $100k.

I had no trouble getting an uncollateralized loan at a reasonable rate for $75k; and I had $100k in student debt, a $500k mortgage and little else in the way of assets. And when I say “no trouble” I mean I applied for the loan, was approved 30 minutes later and had the money in my bank account within 2 hours. That loan is paid off now, but if your income is high enough banks will lend you money on that alone (I was making an equivalent salary to a principal developer at the time).

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by vmception on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:39AM (#27246947)
If you’ve ever taken any risk with credit and failed or simply had a disruption in income anytime in the last 10 years prior you would have been denied.

Its nice everything worked out for you, that has nothing to do with your ability to perceive a simple solution available to you.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by ptero on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:57AM (#27247125)
The only risk is that one exercises the options, but by the time one sells the shares (which they got as the result of exercising options), the price of the stock falls below the strike price. To avoid this risk, do a quick sell after exercise. This makes risk minimal; in case of bigger companies effectively zero.

Bigger risk comes in if someone wants to do an exercise and hold to sell much later, which can bring tax advantages. But this is a different game entirely. In the case of employee with little spare cash (to the tune of borrowing money for the exercise), not doing exercise and sell is really leaving money on the table. My 2c.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by vmception on Saturday May 22, 2021 @01:30PM (#27248592)
You missed the point that many people with good finances are denied credit. They cant get a $75,000 loan. Thats the only point I was making. The person provided no insight whatsoever and was unable to see that their experience is different.
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by ghaff on Saturday May 22, 2021 @11:35AM (#27247521)
One thing I learned during the dot-bomb era is think hard about holding too much of your company's stock and, especially, think really hard about exercising options and then not selling. Fortunately the stock drifted back up a ways over time and then my former company was acquired for a nice spike. So between that and tax loss offsets, I didn't do that bad. But I've been careful since. (Of course, more recently, I'd have been better off holding more for longer but I can't really complain.)
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by toast0 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @11:54AM (#27247689)
If it's to exercise at the close of a deal, the acquirer could also setup a loan too. I had options which were subject to revesting (lame, but worked out ok), and the acquirer fronted the money to exercise everything that wasn't already exercised and then took payments automatically when the chunks vested. Because of the strike prices we had, it didn't feel very risky.
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by spoonjim on Saturday May 22, 2021 @12:04PM (#27247813)
Yes, but then you’re holding illiquid startup stock that can easily to go 0 in value.
Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by vinay_ys on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:54AM (#27247087)
Regular startup employees borrowing and buying their stock options is far riskier than them borrowing to do options trading in publicly traded stock markets because they have very little information about their company's future prospects.

What goes on between the founders, board, current investors and likely future investors is likely known to very few amongst them, if at all.

Even if you believe strongly in the product and know the market-fit is bang on, you don't know if the option is currently priced correctly.

Re:Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and e... by alasdair_ on Saturday May 22, 2021 @12:18PM (#27247956)
Most option contracts forbid the employee pledging the shares for anything, including a loan to pay taxes. Its kind of absurd.