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Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by londons_explore on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:56AM (#27206115)
Is prison labor bad in all cases?

By letting prisoners become familiar with expectations of a job, and get used to being paid, managing finances, and spending within their means, they're less likely to be forced to return to crime after they're released.

Despite being 'inhumane', I suspect these programmes lead to better outcomes for people involved in them than prisoners who spend every day in a cell.

Is there data to prove or disprove my hypothesis?

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kstenerud on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:14AM (#27206218)
It was fine when the prisoners themselves were the only ones using the things they produced. The problem comes when the fruits of this labor are sold on the market. Then all of the perverse incentives rear their ugly heads.

Whenever you have a captive consumer or producer of marketable materials, you have a perverse incentive to exploit, because the other party has no choice in the matter and must take whatever you offer (if anything). Every dystopian movie makes heavy use of these kinds of story elements.

In the case of prison labor, you essentially have slaves, and can therefore leverage that slave labor to undercut your competitors in the open market. The slaves, meanwhile, suffer the indignity of their forced labor and exploitation for someone else's benefit, which is why we outlawed slavery in the civilised parts of the world.

In the case of captive markets (food, commissary, communications systems, etc), price gouging is commonplace. Food quality is so low that malnutrition is common. Quality is shit but it doesn't matter because the consumers of these products are not empowered to decide, while everyone else involved benefits from their exploitation and therefore has no incentive to fix it.

This is then further exacerbated by trade groups that influence laws to increase incarceration durations and incidence in order to preserve and even expand their supply of captives for further exploitation and profit.

I suggest you look into how Western European countries handle their prison populations for comparison.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by corobo on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:27AM (#27206702)
> In the case of prison labor, you essentially have slaves

s/essentially/literally/

The US laws still allow for slaves by name as long as they're in prison

> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by jiofih on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:35AM (#27206339)
I don’t see how selling to the outside world is a problem in itself. It connects with the community and gives the workers a much more fulfilling sense of accomplishment than doing it as a hobby.

What you described only holds true if:

1. There is nobody overseeing policies regarding prices, compensation and workloads.

2. The “business” or workforce can be grown to increase profit

3. Work is mandatory

Both 1 and 2 point to a private prison system being a problem. They have little oversight, and are incentivized to increase the # if prisoners instead of it being an expense.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kstenerud on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:01AM (#27206513)
Selling to the outside world is not a problem PROVIDED the producer of said products can set the asking price for their labor and the (free) market itself dictates what they can get. This is never the case with prison systems, public or private.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by risyachka on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:08AM (#27206561)
Selling is not a problem whatsoever. The laws that regulate prison wages should probably be changed.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kstenerud on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:24AM (#27206676)
Which is great in theory, but the only people interested in influencing such prison laws are the trade groups that represent those who benefit from the status quo.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by jdasdf on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:23AM (#27206279)
The problem is the incentives they create to imprison people.

Imprisoning someone should be a purely negative action on the state, by having some potential benefit you reduce the costs imposed to the state and therefore incentivize imprisonment.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:08AM (#27206179)
>By letting prisoners become familiar with expectations of a job, and get used to being paid, managing finances, and spending within their means, they're less likely to be forced to return to crime after they're released.

I would expect there are large percentages of the prison population that might be familiar with these things, also I mean the expectation a job in prison might be getting you ready for is a low paid job in which you are exploited, which once having been in prison in the U.S is probably what you can expect - but I don't know if having that expectation will actually reduce recidivism.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by miskin on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:17AM (#27206239)
I actually know people that had some business inside prison in EU country and the experience was that there were more prisoners asking to be working than it was possible to use. Main driving force was that time passes faster when you are busy, with another advantage that earned money could be used to buy some extra goods. Also, some of the former prisoners continued to work in that company once their prison time was over, so it was really good help in transition to freedom. Since prison work is voluntary, there is not much space for exploitation.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:36AM (#27206347)
>I actually know people that had some business inside prison in EU country

ok but there does seem to be some perception in the world that the prisons in the U.S might be slightly lacking in some of the human rights protections found in EU prisons - you are aware of this concern right?

>Since prison work is voluntary, there is not much space for exploitation.

Again, speaking about the U.S, and I know that in Utah prison work is not exactly voluntary in that the parole board has power to release or make stay to your maximum sentence - so in Utah you go in with a possible 1-15 years, if the parole board wants to let you go in 1 year you can go (but of course be on parole and get pulled back in again later if considered necessary), so how do you get the parole board to consider letting you out in 1 year instead of 15 - well you get a job and work every day and show them that you are good. Other tools are of course used for compliance and to make people work.

This is of course one state and things vary by state the American system, but there are plenty of states considered much worse than Utah for prisoner exploitation so in conclusion, I know things are great in the EU is not going to calm any worries in a discussion about the US.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by miskin on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:00AM (#27207958)
I agree, that's why I chose to include info about EU, and of course my comment is meant to be just one extra data point. Definitely there will be huge differences around the world, but prison work may not always equal to exploitation.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by sokoloff on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:25AM (#27206293)
There’s clearly space for exploitation if you allow the overall system to adjust the number of people becoming prisoners.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by jiofih on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:39AM (#27206360)
That’s mostly a North American problem though, the commenter is from the EU. Work is opt-in.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Peckingjay on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:00AM (#27206137)
Not in all cases, but when coupled with the private prison system of the US which is less concerned with rehabilitation and more with the extraction of value from its "residents", you do get a problem.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by de_keyboard on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:21AM (#27206267)
In that sense it is not bad. The problem is that it creates perverse financial incentives for large sections of the population to be incarcerated as a cheap supply of labour. Prison labour also undercuts minimum wages in some cases. Consider that for-profit prison companies spend millions of dollars on lobbying efforts.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by simiones on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:04AM (#27206161)
Even if you were absolutely correct about improved outcomes (I don't know what/if the data shows), there is still a major problem that would still make prison labor as it exists today problematic or even immoral: it creates a huge incentive to imprison more people through various means (stricter laws, opposition to drug reform, mandatory minimums etc.). The prison industrial complex is a major lobby for these issues, so this is not just a theoretical concern.

A system that would improve the life of people after prison without falling for this pitfall would have to entirely remove the profit motive from prison labor (for example by prohibiting the prison to keep any proceeds from prison labor, or by paying inmates competitive rates for the work they are doing, so that overall prison labor is guaranteed to be more expensive than just hiring/outsourcing etc).

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by FriedrichN on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:05AM (#27206165)
I would be fine with it if there was no profit made, or the profits would go to rehabilitation of these individuals. Being able to make a profit off prison labor is a bad incentive.

Kind of how America went from the slave labor system to the prison labor system seamlessly. There was just too much money to be made.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by antihero on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:12AM (#27206205)
Could also serve as a reminder to people that despite the risks of crime, a banal job is basically just a punishment.

I think if I wasn't a programmer and only had the skills to work a minimum wage job, crime would absolutely seem more rational.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by yesenadam on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:02AM (#27206156)
Well, I guess if you compare prison labour vs nothing, like that, then it sounds all good. If you compare slave/underpaid labour vs proper-wage labour, then it's probably putting people out of a job. Also, it sounds like the last thing the US needs is more commercial incentive to put people in prison.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by nunoonun on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:53AM (#27206460)
> Is prison labor bad in all cases?

Yes, all prison labor is bad in all cases.

Why? It's very simple, you're creating a market that incentivizes incarceration. Prison should be about recovery of a human being and trying to create negative incentives so people think about making a crime (this is a bit debatable).

When you create a market for incarceration, what you're saying is "we don't want to lower crime". So yes, it's bad in all cases because we should be creating incentives to lower crime instead of how to make it profitable.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by risyachka on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:02AM (#27206519)
Prisons don’t incarcerate people. If the money from sales go to prisons and inmates then there is no incentives for judges or prosecutors to incarcerate anyone. If money somehow are connected - this should probably be changed. The fact of selling products to the market is not a problem here.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by nunoonun on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:36AM (#27206762)
Because lobbying is illegal, right?
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by slumber86 on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:03AM (#27206160)
From the piece: "incarcerated people working for the state’s correctional industries earn an average of $4.50 per day."
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Avshalom on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:35AM (#27206758)
Maybe slave labor is good 'cause convicts don't know about jobs is a pretty impressively fucked "hypothesis"
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by watwut on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:50AM (#27206438)
> By letting prisoners become familiar with expectations of a job, and get used to being paid, managing finances, and spending within their means, they're less likely to be forced to return to crime after they're released.

Afaik, prisons jobs in general do nothing of the sort.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by 1_person on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:10AM (#27206193)
Would it be bad if you were the prisoner?
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by gambiting on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:44AM (#27206396)
Consider that with the perverse incentives you might become a prisoner because the state and/or private company needs more cheap labour.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by risyachka on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:09AM (#27206574)
How is judge or prosecution incentivized to make you one?
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by La1n on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:14AM (#27206607)
There is at least a single case where kickbacks from private prisons influenced judges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal