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Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tshaddox on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:05PM (#27176575)
But also, surely the traditional legal system will still handle disputes over smart contracts just like it does with traditional contracts. I can’t imagine that a missing line of code (intentional or not) would be treated any differently by the legal system than a vaguely-worded clause in a traditional contract. The legal system almost certainly will not say “your contract was just code and the code executed properly according to its technical specifications and therefore the outcome stands.”
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by BoiledCabbage on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:28PM (#27176756)
The thing is, that's what a lot of smart contract proponents are pushing for. That the legal system has no say over contracts, so the outcome would stand. Or effectively bake into operating these contracts that the legal system isn't a reprieve against anything.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tshaddox on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:42PM (#27176857)
They might be pushing for it, but I just don’t think it’s going to happen, at least for transactions where it’s feasible to sue in court. The courts already deal with traditional contracts and, from what I can tell, they tend to look more at what a reasonable person would expect the outcome of a contract to be than the literal text of the contract.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by jollybean on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:51PM (#27176920)
"That the legal system has no say over contracts, "

An agreement is an agreement subject to laws and jurisdiction. There's no avoiding that.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lazide on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:28PM (#27177158)
If distributed and decentralized it also runs across a common issue with courts - the ‘make me’ problem.

If someone buys product x from seller y, which is based on some decentralized ‘contract’ which is defacto enforced by every node of the network independently - and that product then produces a unjust outcome.

You go to court, but what if Y is just a node on the network? And everyone involved is outside the courts jurisdiction? what can an adverse court judgement actually accomplish? It can’t roll back the network activity to fix the smart contract without everyone’s consent - and that seems unlikely. It can declare product X illegal or fine seller Y - but if they have no way to enforce it, what’s the point?

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by PeterisP on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:23PM (#27177585)
If the seller Y is identifiable but simply abroad, then there are various cross-country agreements that would allow to use the legal process in their country to collect money from them in various ways, especially if there's a lot of money at stake - like the $10M discussed in the article.

If the seller is unidentified, then it is possible to get a judgement and work on identifying them. If it's not just a civil dispute but felony fraud, then law enforcement might identify them some years later, it happens.

Of course, if everyone involved is properly anonymous then it's very, very hard to enforce anything, and takes enough effort and money so that it's not worth the hassle for small amounts, so for that there's simply some 'caveat emptor' in dealing with foreign anonymnous sellers. If you defraud $10 off of someone across the ocean, you are likely to get away with this. But for large cases of fraud? Everyone makes mistakes now and them that may allow them to get identified, and such fraud can be prosecuted many years later.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by Pulcinella on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:47PM (#27177305)
I doubt the judge is going to care that the “contract” passed through a bunch of different peoples hands (nodes in a network). They could still fine the seller or order them to return the funds to X.

If Y can’t be hauled into court because they are in another country or you just don’t know their identity, well that isn’t a problem specific to these “distributed smart contracts.”

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lazide on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:51PM (#27177348)
It is actually a problem specific to these types of contracts. It is very difficult to nearly impossible for me to get money to a company somewhere right now in a way that doesn’t surface who they are and where they are at in some really obvious (and traceable) way - part of the US War on Terror is the anti money laundering, and know your customer rules and heavy handed enforcement of US financial control.

In this case, you send some ether somewhere.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by Daishiman on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:51PM (#27177347)
If a US or EU court finds participants of said node criminally or financially liable and the political will exists (which will happen when someone important enough gets screwed over by a bad contract) they may be deported, face criminal prosecution, be banned from transacting with US financial entities, etc.

Those things are not a small deal.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lazide on Monday May 17, 2021 @01:19AM (#27180286)
Lots of if’s and May’s there - and that’s true of a ton of things in crypto. It took nearly a decade before the SEC or IRS would even provide basic guidance on what the heck crypto even was in their eyes. Lots of deals gonna happen, lots of fortunes made and lost in that gap.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lottin on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:24PM (#27176722)
I'm pretty sure a "smart contract" isn't a legally-binding contract. A smart contract is a piece of software code, like a text editor or a web browser.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by unyttigfjelltol on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:05PM (#27177008)
Well ... first, what's described in the article isn't that smart. It's actually dumb.

If we describe these code-as-law thingys as 'dumb contracts' it is crystal clear that 'YES' this is a dumb contract and any sane judge presented with one may well decide to give the participants exactly what they deserve, just like paper-based 'dumb contracts.'

The key innovation here is that we've gone to the remedy residing in programmer malpractice, rather than attorney malpractice. Which in turn, when it becomes obvious to all involved, hopefully will have a chilling effect on any smart programmer asked to write a 'dumb contract.'

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by ZephyrBlu on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:37PM (#27177222)
It's called a "smart contract" because it's programmable (Smart) and can be executed based on specific conditions (Contract).

I've seen/read somewhere that Vitalik regrets naming them "smart contracts" though.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by varjag on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:44PM (#27177277)
They are database triggers, but that's not enough grandeur for cryptoheads.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lazide on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:29PM (#27177173)
Looking at the various issues that have come up with these ‘smart contracts’ (aka the ethereum DAO issues up until now), I think anyone who wants to write one should be automatically excluded from being allowed to do so.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by astrange on Sunday May 16, 2021 @07:55PM (#27178460)
They should maybe be forced to learn what a dependent type system is so they can regret that their smart contracts are written in a language with no safety features.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by Paradigma11 on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:43AM (#27182031)
https://juvix.org/ is looking rather nice but is still beta.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tshaddox on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:43PM (#27176868)
Yes, and if you use a smart contract to hire someone to build a deck on your house, I suspect any resulting legal disputes would be treated by the courts the same as if you had used a traditional contract.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by riffraff on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:56PM (#27176959)
The problem is that smart contracts do not come with the same capability to take your counterpart to a tribunal: you might not even know who your counterpart is, im which country they live or if there are multiple ones. Who are you gonna sue?
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lottin on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:40PM (#27177246)
A "smart contract" is a computer program that manipulates balances on a ledger. There is no way you can use that to hire someone to perform a job because this isn't something that can be expressed in terms of balances. You would need an actual contract to do that. Also the parties that interact with the so-called smart contract have no agreement between them. What could they possibly have a dispute over?
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tshaddox on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:56PM (#27177378)
Yes, a smart contract is not a legally-binding agreement, although it could be a component of a legally-binding agreement. That’s my point.

The smart contract in my hypothetical scenario might be something like a transaction with 3 parties: you (the customer), the construction company, and a third-party verification service, that executes your payment to the construction company when any 2 of the parties agree to execute. This theoretically prevents the possibility of any 1 party defecting and running away with a monetary benefit (including the third party verification service, which couldn’t run away with the cash like a traditional escrow service hypothetically could).

But my point is that even in this case, if the construction company and third-party verification service colluded to run away with the money without completing the work, you would still sue one or both of them, and my prediction is that the courts would treat this essentially identically to a scenario using traditional contracts.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by lottin on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:27PM (#27177617)
But for this arrangement to work the customer, the construction party and the third-party need to enter into an agreement, i.e. a traditional contract. A traditional contract is legally binding, so of course the courts would treat it as legally binding. The smart contract may be part of the agreement but a smart contract by itself is not an agreement and something cannot be a legally-binding agreement if it isn't an agreement to begin with.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tshaddox on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:38PM (#27177723)
I suspect a court would tend to take the existence of the smart contract as a pretty clear indication of the intent of the involved parties. But of course if you’re entering a significant commercial agreement like this you had better make an explicit traditional contract as well.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tylersmith on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:36PM (#27177218)
People get so hung up on the word contract. Might as well spend time arguing that rodents make for bad I/O peripherals.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by arilotter on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:09PM (#27176607)
It's not necessarily true that a smart contract is controlled or operated by an individual or corporation. Once deployed, many have no provisions for administration or ownership tools. If you're using one of these contracts and there's a bug, suing the creator would be like suing someone because they put a random legal contract template online & you didn't proofread it well enough.
Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by kevindong on Sunday May 16, 2021 @05:40PM (#27177243)
Then what's the point of smart contracts? If you always must have some form of repudiation/reversal mechanism, you might as well go with the traditional contracts.

You could argue there will be lowered costs in the happy path where nothing goes wrong, but I'm not sure that's valid since the underlying software still needs to written/supported by someone.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by TimJRobinson on Sunday May 16, 2021 @08:34PM (#27178726)
Smart contracts can automatically execute code that makes transactions happen. With a traditional contract you need a third party to do that (or you have to trust the other person).

This allows for a lot more efficiency as people who've never met can make trades on an open market without having to involve anyone else.

Re:Missing line in a smart contract leads to $10M hack by tshaddox on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:40PM (#27177741)
One obvious point would be transactions for which the traditional legal system is not an option, like illegal transactions or highly secretive transactions. But yes, I think advocates would provide other examples of lowering costs.