News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by sanity31415 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:27PM (#27135344)
> His hiring “calls into question parts of our system of inclusion at Apple, including hiring panels, background checks, and our process to ensure our existing culture of inclusion is strong enough to withstand individuals who don’t share our inclusive values,” they write.

So they want to exclude someone for having different opinions to them, in the name of inclusivity?

Clown world.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by mc32 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:45PM (#27135528)
It’s weird for people of Latin descent. If they’re on your side, they are people of color, if they are not, then, by magic, they are no longer. This happens to Hispanic cops as well. If they are on the other side of the progressive equation, then they’re also people of color.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by zozbot234 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:05PM (#27135720)
When the "different opinion" involves proclaiming that a whole class of your fellow workers are "soft, weak and full of $#!+" then yes, you should be resolutely excluded from positions of authority since you have willingly forfeited the kind of trust that's required for any such role. Let this guy stay in a pure engineering/IC role if he wants, but he should not be in a management position.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by thu2111 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:22AM (#27139734)
This is out-of-context quoting. The passage in question is actually about a woman he met and how she was not these things. The very next sentence says:

"British Trader, on the other hand, was the sort of woman who would end up a useful ally in that postapocalypse, doing whatever work—be it carpentry, animal husbandry, or a shotgun blast to someone’s back— required doing"

In other words he is comparing personalities and attitudes, not making generalisations about literally all women. But the subset of women he is generalising about are exactly the sort who are now trying to make him unemployable by quoting him out of context (i.e. being "full of shit") and demanding that Apple shield them (i.e. "cosset") by getting rid of a guy who finds other kinds of women more attractive. They also appear to be objecting to a passage that states something about the murder rate and naming of high schools in a particular area, which is presumably factual? So, they're kind of proving his point for him.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by chubbyish on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:06PM (#27136757)
He is comparing to Eastern European women.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by MyHypatia on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:44PM (#27135521)
I think the clown world is hiring someone who wrote:

“Most women in the Bay Area are soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit. They have their self-regarding entitlement feminism, and ceaselessly vaunt their independence, but the reality is, come the epidemic plague or foreign invasion, they’d become precisely the sort of useless baggage you’d trade for a box of shotgun shells or a jerry can of diesel.”

It's especially ironic after an epidemic plague where 70% of health care workers are women. But I guess they're mostly useless baggage who are full of shit. Unlike this guy. See, he really understands how the world is and is just "telling it like it is". Let's trade all these useless women for shotgun shells, and hire people like this guy instead.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by Udik on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:05PM (#27135719)
This is a wider excerpt:

"When she was in her teens, her father decided to move the family to the United States, where they suffered a financial reversal she was unwilling to talk about. Suddenly not among the moneyed class, she hustled herself through the redbrick boondocks of the University of Vermont. Citibank internship led to a Deutsche Bank job, and after a few years she was an equity derivatives trader at Deutsche, holding her own against the toff sharks of the City of London.

She had wild green eyes, with unnatural red spots in her irises when you pulled close, reminiscent of that Afghan girl from the National Geographic cover. Her personality was flinty and rough, and as leathery as her skin. She had spent years between various jobs backpacking around the rougher parts of the world. She was an imposing, broad-shouldered presence, six feet tall in bare feet, and towering over me in heels.

Most women in the Bay Area are soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit. They have their self-regarding entitlement feminism, and ceaselessly vaunt their independence, but the reality is, come the epidemic plague or foreign invasion, they’d become precisely the sort of useless baggage you’d trade for a box of shotgun shells or a jerry can of diesel.

British Trader, on the other hand, was the sort of woman who would end up a useful ally in that postapocalypse, doing whatever work- be it carpentry, animal husbandry, or a shotgun blast in someone's back- required doing. Long story short, you wanted to tie your genetic wagon to the backing horse of her bloodline. Which is why I was less nervous than I should have been on a random Saturday in July..."

So it's a passage in a (novel? Definitely a literary piece anyway) where, in order to better sing the praise of one particular woman, she is compared to another common type in the same environment. All clearly point of view of a narrator (who might or might not be the author). If these are the parameters, we should throw in the bin almost all literature, from men and women alike.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @10:18PM (#27137702)
I actually agree that in context, the passage is every-so-slightly better. But it's still an extremely offensive thing to say! If you were a woman in the bay area, and the man responsible for your performance reviews had written that "most women in the bay area" are "useless baggage you'd trade for a box of shotgun shells", would you expect to get a fair evaluation?

There are other situations—Teen Vogue, for instance—where I think the world greatly overreacts, but this doesn't strike me as one of those cases.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by MyHypatia on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:15PM (#27135811)
He did not write a fiction novel. He wrote a book about his time working on ads at Facebook. He has now been hired to work on ads at Apple. Pointing this out is not "throwing away all literature".
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by blast on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:22AM (#27138382)
That's not exactly accurate, because his book was obviously modeled on the 'gonzo' journalism of Hunter S. Thompson, Lester Bangs, and that sort of writer from the 70s. Those writers mixed fiction and fictional devices into their "nonfiction", consciously pushing every edge they could, with the intention of shocking the squares and thrilling the hip. To anyone familiar with that genre, it's clear that such passages are satirical excess, not meant to be taken literally, or at least mostly not, but with enough ambiguity left over to be dangerous.

What's interesting in this episode is how the culture has shifted. The exact same style that once delighted the counterculture, which at the time was what progressives all identified with, is now a transgression that gets you banned from progressive circles, which have since become elite circles culturally, with growing political power as well. All of this is a tectonic cultural shift, and it's fascinating!

There's a very interesting intermediate case at the midpoint between Hunter S. Thompson and this guy: that is the similarly gonzo The eXile which was produced by Mark Ames and Matt Taibbi during their time in Russia in the 90s. The worst passages from that publication—which were far more misogynistic than anything this guy wrote—were dredged up a few years ago, with the intention of denouncing the authors as part of MeToo. In the end, nothing much came of it, partly because one of the women being written about came forward to say that those passages were satirical and that she had always been treated well by the authors. But I think the more important difference between that case and this is that the culture has shifted significantly in the intervening 3 or 4 years. If this incident were happening now, I bet the outcome would be different. The very same gunpowder that made counterculture heroes of Thompson and his ilk, and which the eXile guys got away with by a hair, now blows up in your face, and at much smaller doses too.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by ABeeSea on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:48AM (#27140676)
I damn sure wouldn’t want Hunter S Thompson to be my manager.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by jessaustin on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:45PM (#27160045)
Taibbi had something to say about this situation.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-the-hypocrites-at-apple-who...

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by tomnipotent on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:18PM (#27135847)
> So it's a passage in a (novel? Definitely a literary piece anyway)

It's not fiction. It's an autobiography. These are his personal opinions and feelings.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by rasputnik6502 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:26PM (#27135914)
Since when personal feelings and opinions should be prosecuted? And who is so entitled to give themselves such right?
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by tomnipotent on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:28PM (#27135932)
Yes. We're allowed to judge people for the things they do and so, and decide we don't want to work with them. He's allowed his, and we're allowed ours. Many people are not interested with working with people that hold these world views, not when they have influence over the career progression of others.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by rasputnik6502 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:35PM (#27135995)
Well I'm not interested in working with people who feel entitled to targeting someone and mobbing to destroy them based on opinions and personal beliefs. This is illegal activity imho
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by Udik on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:30PM (#27135948)
The question is not whether it's allowed or not, it is. The question is whether it's stupid or not, and I think it is, terribly so.
[dead]
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by chubbyish on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:00PM (#27136713)
> thinks them inferior

To who? Eastern European woman. How is this sexist?

> known misogynist

Men find women physically attractive.

I would be interested to know what films, books, comedians you actually find permissible for yourself to enjoy.

If you take offense to what is written here, I really don’t see how most of the media available today can be suitable. Do you ever ask yourself if you are being consistent in your standards?

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by tomnipotent on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:36AM (#27139414)
I don't have to work for those directors, authors, or comedians. And if Joss Whedon is any indication, a lot of other people don't want to either but have toxic people like this forced upon them by powers-that-be.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by rasputnik6502 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:47PM (#27136090)
Nobody forces them to work, and 'known mysogynist' is just a personal attack without merit. What actions did he take against women in general or any woman in particular to be called a misogynist? Remember, if it's only your personal belief, if you dislike the book and the author of it you're free to look for another workplace. But not free to take actions against someone just because you don't like them.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by tomnipotent on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:35AM (#27139404)
> Nobody forces them to work

Right, because women are all still all housewives and don't need to worry about bills or having jobs and the bosses they might have.

> What actions did he take against

How have you missed the whole "wrote book expressing lots of misogyny" bit?

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by Udik on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:00PM (#27136224)
> women should be forced to work under a known misogynist

How do you know he's a misogynist? You read a small, absolutely marginal excerpt from a book that is clearly written in a literary style. In it, he draws a comparison between a particular woman, who is praised for her talent and resourcefulness, and "most Bay Area women", who are definitely not all women, in the Bay Area and much less in general. "Most Americans" is not a judgement on human beings, "most American men" is not a judgement on all men, so why should "most Bay Area women" be a judgement on all women? And this is even assuming that that remark corresponds to some deep conviction, which is a silly assumption given the style and the context.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by tomnipotent on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:30PM (#27136502)
Did you consider that I've read the book?

Here's my favorite review from Goodreads 2016:

"Pretentious, pseudo-intellectual misogynist pontificates about his theories on tech business, society, and capitalism while sneering at every other human with Olympian contempt and making unacceptable sexist comments about women for about 500 pages."

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by pseudalopex on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @11:15PM (#27138022)
Since when was he prosecuted?
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by kbelder on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:01PM (#27135685)
Yeah, he should have included Bay Area men in that assessment.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by CheezeIt on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:53PM (#27135604)
Yet I see companies like Cisco announcing mental health days for their utterly broken employees.
[dead]
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by belltaco on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @10:48PM (#27137887)
He was hired to work in the Bay Area alongside those women he despises though.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by zoeysaurusrex on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:10PM (#27135757)
Who is "they"? Don't be shy.

Saying things like "women soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit." is more than just a difference of opinion. You cannot hold that opinion and be a fair leader.

Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by chubbyish on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:07PM (#27136764)
You are deliberately misquoting.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by zem on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:48PM (#27135557)
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by zoeysaurusrex on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:13PM (#27135785)
How so? People can have all the opinions they want but saying things such as "women are soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit." isn't okay. Please convince me how that is employable behavior?
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by zem on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:17AM (#27139310)
yes, precisely, which is why i brought up the paradox of tolerance. the parent comment was trying to say that if apple really wanted an "inclusive" workspace, they needed to be inclusive to sexist guy as well. the paradox of tolerance explains why that doesn't work in practice, and why apple was right to eject him.
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by olliej on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:56PM (#27135639)
Yup
Re:Apple employees petition demanding investigation into ‘mi... by olliej on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:56PM (#27135630)
Different opinions in this case is that women and PoC are inferior.

That’s a reasonably difference of opinion to make choices over.

I wouldn’t trust performance assessments from him.