News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by Deukhoofd on Monday May 10, 2021 @01:45PM (#27108711)
From what I read in the proposal the core idea of it is solid. DNS is a vital piece of infrastructure, and we should take steps to ensure it keeps working. Putting together task forces to make sure it is secure therefore sounds like a very good idea.

Root servers might be out of scope to some degree for this however. Interestingly enough the root servers also aren't mentioned in the proposal itself, nor in the annex listing essential services. They're only mentioned in the lead up, which is the argument for why it's needed. It somewhat feels like they left it in accidentally, especially with the parliament immediately amending to scrap it from the lead up as well.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by EricE on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:05PM (#27108943)
The single biggest thing keeping the root servers working is the very model this law would disrupt.

Indeed, you want ecosystem diversity. You don't want every operator of a pool of root servers doing everything the same way because if someone figures out how to disrupt those operations and if everyone is operating the same way then poof - they all fall down.

Top down planning/regulation has it's place, but it's hardly the solution - and brings zero value to this topic.

Indeed, in 40 years the model has worked just fine - surviving technical, political and legal challenges and no one was the wiser. There is zero in this law that would improve upon that record.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by KronisLV on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:12PM (#27109641)
Here's a naïve question - why couldn't the institution that's supposed to do the planning/regulation be the one that's obligated to provide the necessary resources for the parties being regulated, if they lack them themselves?

> The non-profit root server operators might have to leave the EU and put up active measures so that no Europeans can use their root servers. They can’t afford to do all the paperwork for NIS 2.

For example, if a university cannot afford to file the necessary paperwork, why couldn't the EU be the ones that are obligated to send someone over to handle the legwork and help them out?

I know that something like that would never work for reasons that the lovely people here would hopefully point out (since i don't really deal with the legal stuff that often), but here's another example - i live in Latvia, and the government actually helps me to fill out and pay my taxes somewhat. Granted, it only handles the most common cases and calculations in the form of a self-service web app, but if a lot of paperwork is just forms anyways, why not apply it to other domains?

In contrast, telling a university that they'll need to invest significant time and resources into something that they simply cannot do on their own, knowing the implications of this, doesn't appear fair.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by andrey_utkin on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:04AM (#27116219)
I have an even more naive question: if EU wants a secure and well-overseen root services operator, why don't they spin up their own one? They can do whatever they fancy for their own money.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by xtat on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @04:33PM (#27123146)
This is brilliant ^
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by zyamada on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:45PM (#27110719)
Having worked at a university, but not in this domain, my 2-cents is that what they're trying to say is that can't afford the paperwork in the context of the the associated internal political war that commonly comes along with trying to do anything like this in academia.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by krageon on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @04:31AM (#27115650)
Even without the "like this" in the last sentence this would be accurate.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by anticristi on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:50PM (#27109446)
Devil's advocate here. The DNS root servers worked, but don't quite feel up to speed with regulations. AFAIU, the root servers still receive FQDN and IP, which is not GDPR-friendly and technically unnecessary.

Also, I'm not sure what happens if a crazy US president decided to disrupt .eu.

While regulating root DNS servers might be undesirable now, it sure feels like the right moment to start the conversation.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by khuey on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:58PM (#27109517)
The US government is no longer in control of the root servers, and even if it were, I doubt .eu would be at the top of the target list.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by _-david-_ on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:26PM (#27109789)
> AFAIU, the root servers still receive FQDN

This part is solved with qname minimisation.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by Denvercoder9 on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:40PM (#27109970)
> AFAIU, the root servers still receive FQDN and IP, which is not GDPR-friendly and technically unnecessary.

This is only a problem for a tiny fraction of queries. The records served by the root servers can be cached (e.g. .com has a TTL of 2 days), so most queries don't even hit the root servers. It's a much bigger problem for the registry nameservers.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by fsckboy on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:38PM (#27109951)
> Putting together task forces to make sure it is secure therefore sounds like a very good idea.

the top comment on HN for topics like this frequently follows the format of your comment, saying something that sounds so reasonable, who could object?

But the way the internet works didn't come about magically, it was planned and modified through trial and error by experts who, working together, can be seen as nothing other than a task force. So you are looking for a new task force to interrupt and disturb a task force that already exists. This will inevitably lead to the need for yet another new task force to look into what this task force has done...

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by ur-whale on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:04PM (#27108930)
> DNS is a vital piece of infrastructure

It is, and therefore it should be 100% decentralized, if only to keep it out of the grabby hands of governments, EU or otherwise.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by madeofpalk on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:16PM (#27109058)
Is the 12 root server organisations an example of decentralisation?
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by EricE on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:22PM (#27109133)
Yup. As well as the decentralization and diversity of the technical operations of each pool. Operational diversity can be as important or even more important than technical diversity since humans tend to be the weakest links in technical chains :p
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by ur-whale on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:00PM (#27109533)
> Is the 12 root server organisations an example of decentralisation?

It isn't.

Proof: the fact that US random three letter agencies can take down websites.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by Denvercoder9 on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:41PM (#27109991)
Taking down websites has nothing at all to do with the root servers. The root servers only distribute information about which nameserver is responsible for which TLD, and doesn't concern individual websites at all.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by _-david-_ on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:31PM (#27109852)
It is impossible to build any website that cannot be taken down. The government could seize the physical servers if they wanted to. By your definition that means nothing is decentralized.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by Sargos on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:28PM (#27111091)
>It is impossible to build any website that cannot be taken down

This is becoming less true each day, especially with the advent of IPFS and Ethereum. Uniswap's website will never go down. uniswap.org might be seized but uniswap.eth cannot be altered by anyone.

In a few decades it will be normal for websites to be decentralized and permanent. It's actually quite needed for the robustness of critical internet architecture.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by _-david-_ on Monday May 10, 2021 @07:29PM (#27112212)
I am not sure about IPFS but didn't Ethereum have a 51% attack last year?
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by Sargos on Monday May 10, 2021 @07:50PM (#27112435)
No. You are probably thinking about Ethereum Classic which has been 51% attacked a few times.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by booleandilemma on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:01PM (#27110218)
This sounds like a problem to solve.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by _-david-_ on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:12PM (#27110954)
How? Even if you were to host a website on a satellite the government could launch a rocket and blow it up. If the website is hosted on Earth they could physically cut cables if they wanted to. There is no way to fully prevent the government from preventing access to a website. The internet is decentralized, but not fully immune from governments.
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by jrockway on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:03PM (#27111431)
I mean, you can have more than one copy of the website. Maybe a government can send one satellite-destroying missile, but probably not thousands of them.

Think about how many people have the Linux kernel Git repo cloned on their workstation. It would be essentially impossible for any government to destroy all copies.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by salawat on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:25PM (#27111640)
No it isn't. It's a crutch, but also one of the most centralized, manipulable levers for controlling what is and isn't discoverable on the Net.

Think about it. Domain names are seizable. IP's aren't. You can't stop someone with an IP from existing.

Whenever someone talks about regulating DNS, it should translate to "We want to take control of Namespace management.

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by jonhearty on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:46PM (#27110056)
Handshake.org provides an alternate root zone that seems pretty relevant here
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by theshrike79 on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:52PM (#27109464)
Hear me out: BLOCKCHAIN DNS!

/s

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by Sargos on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:33PM (#27111146)
This ended with /s but DNS and other global namespace management systems are actually one of the problems blockchains solve perfectly. We all need to know what the value of some key->value pair is and have that information always available and easy to update. Blockchains handle data distribution natively, allow updates from authorized parties, and have 100% uptime. Transitioning DNS to something like ENS is something with lots of upsides and few downsides.

Take a look at https://ens.domains/about and https://handshake.org/

Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by twobitshifter on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:07PM (#27109593)
Aaron Swartz (edit) had the same idea http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by BugsJustFindMe on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:11PM (#27109623)
There's no ch in Swartz
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by watt on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:57PM (#27109509)
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by wyager on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:40PM (#27111754)
So, we take a system that has been working perfectly for 40 years, and throw some government “task forces” at it, and we hope this makes it work better?
Re:Dear EU: Please Don't Ruin the Root by kuschku on Monday May 10, 2021 @07:19PM (#27112118)
Most of the internet worked fine for decades without encryption or access control as well, but the situation has changed