News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by goalieca on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:17PM (#27090309)
> Apple always does what is in the best interest of Apple. Everything else is just marketing.

I don’t truly believe Apple is interested in user privacy as a core value but it is a hell of a differentiator compared to Google. On this topic, my interests and theirs happen to align for the time being.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by tmashb on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:23PM (#27090356)
Approach and hypocrisy matters. Apple did boast about privacy and security many times before...
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:32PM (#27091777)
Apple does a lot to actively destroy the privacy of iOS users, though. They assume you desire privacy from everyone but Apple. You can’t even get free iOS apps without giving them your phone number.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by koolba on Saturday May 08, 2021 @08:58PM (#27092218)
Since when do you need a phone number for iOS? How would that work on an iPad?
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @12:24AM (#27093228)
You can't get an Apple ID without giving a phone number.

Opening the App Store app transmits your hardware serial number to Apple, like a permanent supercookie, linking it to your email address and phone number and city-level location via client IP.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by spicybright on Saturday May 08, 2021 @08:01PM (#27091941)
I absolutely agree, but you COULD say one company holding your data is better than lots of them having it too.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by SahAssar on Saturday May 08, 2021 @08:43PM (#27092137)
That depends if they all get the same data.

I'd much rather have multiple services, each of them isolated to the data that is relevant to providing their specific service than one service having it all.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by dontblink on Saturday May 08, 2021 @08:33PM (#27092080)
Who do you think has been a better steward? One thing to consider is the security lapses of each. What company has the best security record?
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by spicybright on Saturday May 08, 2021 @10:13PM (#27092574)
I have no knowledge in general of this stuff, but my assumption is that your average company is horrible with security, but huge corporations dump tons of money into security (being a big target with the most users) making it more effective.

Not saying breaches never happen with apple or google of course, it's just less often than your trusty todo list app being pwned and your clear text passwords being dumped online.

You raise a very good point though. You can't judge the security of a company by any metric except their record. It would be interesting to have a registry that logs breaches, how severe they are, and give an overall rating to them.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by petmon on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:50PM (#27092446)
Phone number is a valid point, but in many other ways Apple actively avoids collecting its customer data. Location data, Messages, Apple Card transactions, health and home, Siri are examples.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @12:23AM (#27093222)
Messages' end to end cryptography are actively backdoored for the FBI.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by petmon on Sunday May 09, 2021 @01:19AM (#27093432)
If Messages E2E crypto were backdoored, then why would the FBI take an interest in iCloud backups?

I too wish iCloud backups were E2E encrypted, but that is a very different claim from "Apple assumes you desire privacy from everyone but Apple." Apple knows you want privacy from Apple; their privacy policy is quite explicit about what data Apple cannot see.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209110

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @01:59AM (#27093608)
iCloud Backup backs up the messages, or the message sync key in the case of Messages in iCloud being enabled.

iCloud Backup is not e2e encrypted, which means Apple either gets the full iMessage and SMS history (in the case of Messages in iCloud being disabled), or gets the e2e encryption key to decrypt the synced Messages in iCloud (which they already have, due to running iCloud).

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by petmon on Sunday May 09, 2021 @04:30AM (#27094281)
Yes we agree that Apple has the technical capability of decrypting Messages that have been backed up by users who have enabled iCloud Backup, even if those messages were previously E2E encrypted. I think Apple should fix that.

Your link describes in detail what Apple can and cannot read. They seem to want their customers to know. So how did you conclude "Apple assumes you desire privacy from everyone but Apple?"

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @06:29AM (#27094829)
I belive that most users, after reading 202303 and Apple's public communications around privacy, would incorrectly conclude that Apple cannot read their iMessages.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by ViViDboarder on Sunday May 09, 2021 @01:20AM (#27093436)
Your link doesn’t say anything like that. It talks about how Apple was planning to add e2ee encrypted backups of iMessages to iCloud but instead opted not to offer them as e2ee backups.

If you don’t enable backups for iMessages, they stay on your device.

Nowhere does it describe a back door that the FBI has access to.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:02AM (#27093620)
> If you don’t enable backups for iMessages, they stay on your device.

The backups are enabled by default, on your device, as well as the devices of everyone else you iMessage with.

For iMessage to be end to end secured, you need to turn off iCloud Backup on each and every device you have, and everyone you iMessage with needs to turn off iCloud Backup on each and every device they have. If either you or your conversation partner misses a single device, Apple will get either the message text itself in the backup (if Messages in iCloud is disabled) or the message sync encryption key (if Messages in iCloud is enabled).

In practice, this never happens. Non-e2e iCloud Backup is an iMessage cryptographic backdoor.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by nl on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:18AM (#27093682)
Saying that defaults are insecure (which is the case here) is different to the claim there is a backdoor.

A backdoor is a very specific claim that isn't backed up.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:25AM (#27093717)
Key escrow for the FBI was a cryptographic backdoor during the crypto wars in the 90s, and it is still the same today.

Defaults matter.

Apple had a plan to secure it, and (I understand) a partial implementation. It was killed specifically to aid surveillance capabilities. If that isn't a backdoor, I don't know what is.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:35AM (#27093757)
There's still people willing to claim USA government law enforcement and security agencies don't have privileged access to US big tech company data.

You're not going to find proof in the EULA.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:42PM (#27098508)
Your location data is sent to Apple with your IP 24/7 if you have Location Services enabled, as the device sends the visible wifi AP mac addresses to Apple continuously. It's not just passive GPS reception.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by sneak on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:43PM (#27098514)
Home cannot be set up without an iCloud account, which requires an Apple ID, which you can't get without providing a phone number.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by Siira on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:39PM (#27090484)
You can't win in a duopoly.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by kwere on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:45PM (#27090524)
yeah but with buzz marketing you can catch the fat cutsomer and avoid antitrust oversee
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by crossroadsguy on Sunday May 09, 2021 @12:56AM (#27093337)
And that’s also an exact recipe of how to prioritise decisions that help (or seem to help) only in the short term.

Luckily they’re too expensive to be the biggest player in most of the world. But they’re part of a duopoly.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by NicoJuicy on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:15PM (#27091673)
Remember iAd?

Didn't work, so they try something else to differentiate.

If this wouldn't work, they will just adjust targets.

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by simondotau on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:47PM (#27092428)
You have the causation inverted here. iAd failed because they refused to compromise on user privacy.
Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by NicoJuicy on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:35AM (#27094555)
You have the timeline wrong.

They failed for multiple reasons:

> With tight creative control of ads, an insistence on taking a 30% cut of all ad revenues, and a prickly attitude to sharing customer data, the platform won few fans in the media industry.

But iAd launched before their "protection of user privacy' stance. Not after it.

= They couldn't monetize it, so only after that they attack it and "protect user privacy".

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by simondotau on Sunday May 09, 2021 @09:08AM (#27095655)
> But iAd launched before their "protection of user privacy' stance. Not after it.

That's a disingenuous claim. While iAd did predate Apple pushing privacy as a mainstream marketing angle, it certainly did not predate Apple taking a strong position on consumer privacy. This had been a theme in Apple's corporate decisions for at least the past fifteen years, likely longer.

Furthermore your own quoted paragraph belies your own assertion. iAd failed in part because of Apple's "prickly attitude to sharing customer data".

Quotes from a contemporary article:

But advertisers became increasingly perturbed that Apple refused to give them access to the wealth of data iAd had on its consumers from Apple’s hundreds of millions of iTunes accounts.

Stefan Bardega, media agency ZenithOptimedia’s chief digital officer, told us: “iAd has long been a story of unfulfilled potential. Apple has unique customer level data that is hugely interesting to advertisers but has struggled to access that data in a way that doesn’t conflict with the core business.”

Another media agency ... said: “For me, they never understood that they needed to behave like a media owner, rather they could go it alone charging what they wanted, not sharing data, no third-party tracking...”

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-apple-is-pulling-dire...

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by NicoJuicy on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:29PM (#27098388)
I didn't eliminate that from my quote?! Apple made their direction a buying argument after iAd, it doesn't mean they didn't had a stance before it.

If you believe Apple's marketing, how do you explain Google not bowing to China and therefore not bowing to China's influence, while Apple seems to be doing just that.

Eg. https://www.wired.com/story/apple-china-censorship-apps-flag...

Caring about user privacy shouldn't have exceptions, no?

Re:Apple brass discussed disclosing 128M iPhone hack, then d... by simondotau on Monday May 10, 2021 @01:51AM (#27103113)
> I didn't eliminate that from my quote

I didn't say that you did, in fact I explicitly said the opposite. I don't even know where that quote came from. I just pointed out that YOUR choice of quote contradicted your argument.

> If you believe Apple's marketing

I don't believe their marketing. I believe the profit motive, and I believe their actions they've taken in the face of Government and corporate demands for data access.

> Caring about user privacy shouldn't have exceptions, no?

You are falling into a weird self-defined trap of binary thinking. It seems you're asserting that in order to have concern for customer privacy requires privacy to veto literally all other concerns. I never said—no sane person has ever said—that Apple's concern for consumer privacy is their number one motivating directive. Everything is a matter of degrees; a matter of competing priorities.

Personally I don't pick Apple products to protect my data from my Government. I pick them because I want that pile of data to be siloed away from the likes of Google, Facebook, and the countless number of unethical data aggregators that I've never heard of. Apple's selfish commercial motivation to keep my data away from their competitors suits me just fine.

Put simply, Apple's functional concern for my privacy—regardless of the purity of their motives—works for me.