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Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by ladzoppelin on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:35AM (#27060187)
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_phenomenon

What is crazy is that if the people in this movie are not lying, then every person on earth should be trying to solve this mystery. It would take crazy technology and time for anything to travel from another galaxy and be able to handle this environment without slowly studying and incorporating our DNA into theirs over a period of time.(60 years is nothing when you think about it) What is even crazier is that a whole civilization could be living in our own ocean without detection, especially if said civilization had the technology to get here in the first place. Look it all sounds crazy but nothing is crazier than aliens from another planet actually finding us and traveling the distance. The intelligence and technology to do this is not even comparable using living things born on earth. (The difference between the intelligence of Albert Einstein and an ant is far less than Albert Einstein and some living thing which is able to make it to earth and live here undetected for 60/? years )

Honestly if the UFO thing, which has been an issue since the 40's, turn out to be some counter intelligence mind control military garbage..

My theory: Humans are at an evolutionary point where they can't advance without outside help. For example we think we are smart ("Mars is out next home") yet we cannot even stop ourselves from dumping chemicals into our oceans, knowing it is making it harder for us to reproduce.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by dogma1138 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:27AM (#27060494)
> (The difference between the intelligence of Albert Einstein and an ant is far less than Albert Einstein and some living thing which is able to make it to earth and live here undetected for 60/? years )

Eh? That’s a really weird way of looking at intelligence.

By all accounts of you pluck baby from 10,000 BCE and raise it today it wouldn’t be any different than an average person today.

Now one can argue that aliens might be much more physiologically intelligent than humans on a biological level but that’s not necessarily a given or a requirement.

“Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” is true but it doesn’t mean that you can’t understand if it’s explained to you.

An alien civilization that simply has a time lead on humanity might be much more advanced but it doesn’t mean that we won’t be able to understand the physics of how they got here once we learn about it.

An ant is severely limited by biology, for the most part it can not really learn or understand things on an abstract level. Humans on the other hand very much can, if aliens can travel faster than light by exploiting some new physics we just need access to their Wikipedia.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by admissionsguy on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:53AM (#27060650)
The aliens might also be less intelligent than humans, but more advanced technologically due to the lead time or just higher cooperativity. "Dumb aliens" could be a refreshing premise for a sci-fi story.. although it lies on the same continuum as any ant-like intelligent collective, so it's nothing new after all.
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by suby on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:18AM (#27060822)
It's a cool idea. I'd bet that it's unlikely for a sufficiently intelligent species (say one capable of creating machines to cross interstellar distances) to stay dumb, though.

Humanity is fast approaching the point where we can edit our genes or otherwise select for intelligence. Even the idea of creating non-human super intelligent agents of some sort is arguably within reach over the course of the next few hundred years.

I like to think that though the starting average intelligence for a given species might be lower than others, eventually we all wind up at the same place, either turning ourselves into or building some hypothetically (given the laws of the universe) maximally intelligent system.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by T-A on Thursday May 06, 2021 @08:25AM (#27062156)
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by devoutsalsa on Thursday May 06, 2021 @06:12AM (#27061134)
Isaac Arthur made a video titled “Stupid Aliens”:

https://youtu.be/yXWe8g0zziw

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by aspaceman on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:43AM (#27060572)
Yeah ancient folks were still smart. Engineers and scientists of all sorts still. I think people often give way too much weight to intelligence, and not enough to just tools.

Give a dude in 1000 a voltmeter and things get crazy.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by pacman2 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:10AM (#27060766)
> By all accounts of you pluck baby from 10,000 BCE and raise it today it wouldn’t be any different than an average person today.

There are people who would disagree with this.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by BlueTemplar on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:19AM (#27060832)
Why ? I've heard that things might have changed 80k years ago when thanks to cultural progress autism went from negative to positive (for the community), but otherwise AFAIK there haven't been any significant changes since the apparition of homo sapiens 350k-400k years ago ?
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by pacman2 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:29AM (#27060896)
There is an argument that the mind of people changed a few thousand years ago, part as a cultural phenomenon, part as a genetic selection process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in...

(the genetic selection process is mentioned in the book, the wiki abstract puts more focus on a cultural development)

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by tsimionescu on Thursday May 06, 2021 @06:37AM (#27061283)
The bicameral mind is an interesting story, but it is not taken as a serious possibility in any branch of science that studies the human mind, as far as I know.
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by BlueTemplar on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:45AM (#27060995)
That's a fascinating theory, but also quite a wild claim which seems to be hard to falsify ? (And the link with the matter at hand is even more tenuous, since it's only partially genetic.)

It's a bit like if you were saying that you couldn't teach a prehistoric child to read (but even more exaggerated) ?

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by antibuddy on Thursday May 06, 2021 @06:06AM (#27061104)
Everything so far ago is at least hard to prove/falsify, however this is true either way. I think every possible scenario (prehistorics being of more, less or equal potential) is at least plausible. At least it's easy to come up with arguments for each of these cases (and a hidden one being of different brain specialization).
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by dogma1138 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:03AM (#27063353)
Not really since we do have DNA sequencing of prehistoric humans.

Whilst we don’t understand the correlation between genetics and intelligence on a sufficient level there aren’t that many genetic differences in fact you can’t necessarily distinguish the age of the sample that easily either unless you are looking at very specific groups.

And as far as modern hunter gatherers go we know that they aren’t less intelligent than urban humans.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by pacman2 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @12:40PM (#27065856)
People have also claimed, hunters may have been smarter on average. BTW, DNA sequencing does not tell you much. You would need an extremely big sample for comparisons, and even this would exclude methylation patterns and other things.
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by dogma1138 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @01:50PM (#27066833)
People claim a lot of things, it doesn’t mean they are of substance.

We have sufficient evidence of advanced tool making and culture spanning back far enough through human history to indicate that intelligence isn't a modern fluke, heck copper mining and smelting dates back to at least 9000 BCE, the pyramids in Giza date back to 2600 BCE which means that we are closer to Caesar to today than Caesar was to the pyramids.

While I’m open to discussion that over 350-400K years some evolutionary steps happened as far as our intelligence goes. But I am more than comfortable with stating that plucking a human from 10K BCE and exposing them to modern education would yield an average human today.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by Hikikomori on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:44AM (#27060987)
One of my favourite cyberpunk novels was inspired by this, Snow Crash.
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by antibuddy on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:58AM (#27061062)
Autism is by (original) definition a disorder. If everyone has that disorder, then it is no longer a disorder.

I think many people confuse specializaiton, focus and/or intellect with autism.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by BlueTemplar on Thursday May 06, 2021 @12:52PM (#27066038)
I feel that is just one of the definitions of autism ?

Anyway, I didn't want to suggest that everyone had to have it :

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25484160

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by tsimionescu on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:23AM (#27060471)
> What is crazy is that if the people in this movie are not lying, then every person on earth should be trying to solve this mystery

To be fair that's also true of Lord of the Rings :)

But being serious, the scientific mindedness of army personnel and politicians is not widely reputed. I find it still far more likely that they are overblowing simple flukes for fear of dismissing a legitimate threat, than I find it that we are occasionally stumbling into high-technology that contradicts our understanding of physics.

The fact that these sightings are almost always happening at high altitudes and in stressful situations makes it even more likely that they are instrument or human blips, or rare weather-related phenomena.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by zionic on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:46AM (#27064028)
>The fact that these sightings are almost always happening at high altitudes and in stressful situations

But that isn't a fact. I strongly recommend you read up on the complete timeline of the Nimitz incident. It happened over several days and was recorded on an entire suite of sensors including multiple sets of human eyeballs.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by tshaddox on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:00AM (#27060330)
> What is crazy is that if the people in this movie are not lying, then every person on earth should be trying to solve this mystery.

If the people in the movie are not lying, are not taken out of context, and are not mistaken.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by alphabettsy on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:57AM (#27060318)
There’s not much to investigate. People say they say something that’s not there now and wasn’t when they reported it, in most cases that nobody else saw and with little useful information.
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by phyalow on Thursday May 06, 2021 @06:59PM (#27069957)
I watched that documentary, it is certainly very well researched. I note that Christopher Mellon (fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense) on May 5 appeared on the Joe Rogan show for 3 hours, it's worth a listen. https://open.spotify.com/episode/2V0uWX1C4m8xEL0HHYqbnE
Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by graderjs on Thursday May 06, 2021 @07:50AM (#27061834)
I'm with you on this. What I think is crazy tho is how ready and willing many people are to discount, absolutely discount and say, "well that is crazy" the experiences of so many people, who open themselves to ridicule and share some weird thing that happened. And these people are prepared to judge, discount, minimize and dismiss, these other human beings, because....it didn't personally happen to the person judging?

That seems incredibly ungenerous, and low empathy. Even for regular human behavior. So, why, in this case?

There's even more respect, in the main, between people of different religious faiths.

So why? Because some big "Authority Agency with Capital A" has not come out and told everyone, "It's OK, it's OK for you to think this is true now, because we can tell you, we checked, and it's True." Is it really driven by fear of stigma and lack of endorsement by authority? Are we really all living in the Earth-centric, pre-Galileo, dark ages?

The sad, and I think the crazy, thing is, yes, to some extent we are still living in that time, with regard to human mindset and the manipulability of people in large groups via narratives and authority. Even in this age, with all our progress, all our tech, all our ideas and discussions and connectedness.

Like why are we trusting all these theorists and commentators over the people who say they have experience?

A striking parallel I think is with the Time's Up / Me Too movement. It strikes me that we as a society, used to, and in many ways still do, treat survivor's of abuse, domestic and sexual violence as "crazy UFO nuts", who no matter how many come forward, often at great personal cost, to share their stories, and to try to establish some equality, healing and justice. Despite this, and despite the obvious reality that (Ca) there must be some reality behind all these stories and (Cb) not all of these people are simply delusional or making things up, people are so ready and willing to just discount them, and to listen to all the theorists and commentators discounting their experiences.

What I wonder is, how can we as a society do that, and how can the people who judge them do that, when we, and those people judging them, have no idea either way, but are ready to do so, to these other human beings who may be at one of their most vulnerable times. Even when multiple people corroborate their stories.

So while it's a different set of stories, our reaction, and lack of consideration for these brave people, is strikingly similar. To me at least. Maybe now's ripe for a Time's Up or Me Too movement for people who's stories of UFO encounters and ET contact have been dismissed, minimized, discounted and ridiculed for too long. No?

The other thing I think is crazy, is how so many of us are prepared to dig in a position on this topic where none of has really has any idea what's going on. Stake out a tiny circle of our own certainty and say, "Now, here is the truth. All those who doubt me, are clearly nuts." Why does this topic trigger such idiotic, low-empathy and crazy behavior from otherwise extremely logical, balanced and productive individuals?

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by zionic on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:48AM (#27064053)
I think the sad reality is a sizable portion of the population is waiting for permission from mainstream sources before acknowledging the new reality.

The normalization campaign has already begun (2017 NY Times report) and the next big push is the June 2021 release.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by graderjs on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:54PM (#27071540)
Definitely agree with that.

Maybe all of this is just the government or the corporate interests trying to get out in front of this narrative because there's been a proliferation of speculation growing over the last couple of years and now they intend to go full bluebook style to try to put an end to that to try to control the narrative, and maybe, in line with that, they'll come out and say, look all of this stuff is either misinterpreted data or it's our own classified projects and we can say no more about it. In an attempt to shut down that speculation which is really started to get a major foothold in the mass consciousness.

Or maybe they're going to throw their arms up in the air and say we have no fucking idea what's going on, leaving the door slightly ajar for more information to come out in future.

I'm not optimistic we're going to see a big reveal, such as, these are the trading agreements we have with extraterrestrial civilizations and these are all the devices and recovered objects and craft we've reverse engineered and these are the different types of extra terrestrials that were aware of and oh by the way sorry for gaslighting you and intimidating witnesses over the last 60 years, and sorry for rubber stamping programs of alien genetic experimentation on Earth but please don't blame us the aliens twisted our arm. But you never know.

I actually think the government is basically like a pinata in this issue I think they're the ones that cop blame but I think that's by design I think the real movers and shakers behind all this have to be corporate interests some sort of corporate funded military industrial deep state that controls and utilizes this technology and information.

I think it's rather unfortunate that it's sort of the government's job to be The whipping boy and to take all the public blame and for everyone sort of blame the government for all their suppressing the technology but I don't think it's actually the government at all.

And I certainly don't buy the explanation that people simply couldn't handle it. I think it's much more likely that it's a cabal of corporate interests that simply wants to control this advantage and not have it sort of opened up. I think the sad reality is in this issue the government answers to those interests.

I think all of the narrative we have about this all of the stories of galactic civilizations all of the really detailed so-called whistleblower testimony I think it's all an elaborate mythological disinformation narrative crafted by the corporate interests that want to control whatever this phenomenon, technology and information is. and the more conflict there is between different groups, the more some people are true believers some people are true to bunkers, the better that is for the disinformation agents because that controlled opposition, that triggered conflict, gives them ample opportunities to control the narrative and protect their own interests.

After trying to absorb a lot of this information reflect on it and study things in this space the last couple of years that's one perspective I have that is pretty strong and compelling to me right now. I would love for it to be different so let's wait and see.

Re:UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly h... by seniorivn on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:27AM (#27060493)
you are saying we can't stop destroying environment, but it's entirely possible we just haven't managed it yet. as you said 60 years is not that much history wise