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Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:09PM (#26995304)
> That isn’t planned obsolescence.

Yes, it is. Even though Apple devices last longer, after the support is ended, I cannot do anything with them. I cannot update, install anything. They effectively become bricks. If this is not planned obsolescence, then what is?

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by colejohnson66 on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:21PM (#26995486)
Except they don’t become bricks. They still work just fine. In fact, on some more recent unsupported devices, you can still redownload apps (but only up to the latest version supporting your device). Did the Apple II become a brick when Apple stopped supporting them? The IBM PC? Why is an older iDevice a “brick”, but not BlackBerrys or Nokias?
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:25PM (#26995556)
Security issues are found in browsers every day. You get no updates anymore and you are not allowed to update yourself. If you care about (not) leaking any of your data, this is effectively a brick.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:59PM (#26999931)
> They effectively become bricks.

In other words this was complete bullshit.

It’s true that older devices are less capable than newer ones, and you might not want to browse on an old device.

But they aren’t bricks.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @04:32AM (#27004463)
> older devices are less capable than newer ones

Understatement of the year concerning unsupported, insecure and (unreasonably) locked Apple devices.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:43AM (#27007193)
Not really - I don’t expect a 7 year old device to be a good browser - that technology is a moving target, but I do expect it to still work as a notepad, music player, etc.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @01:57PM (#27008329)
My 11-year-old laptop works fine with latest Debian and Firefox.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @04:29PM (#27009549)
This is no different from 11 year old Apple laptops.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:51PM (#27010210)
But it is different from GNU/Linux phones, which will be supported forever.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:26PM (#27011560)
1. So why did you mention laptops? Seems like a false comparison.

2. What 11 year old GNU/Linux phone is supported today let alone ‘forever’?

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Sunday May 02, 2021 @10:49AM (#27015763)
> 1. So why did you mention laptops? Seems like a false comparison.

Linux laptops have a proven track record of being supported for >10 years. Since the GNU/Linux phones also run mainline Linux, they are effectively the same kind of devices. There is no reason to expect that GNU/Linux phones will stop being supported.

> 2. What 11 year old GNU/Linux phone is supported today let alone ‘forever’?

Nokia N900? See also: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Sunday May 02, 2021 @11:13AM (#27015970)
> 1. So why did you mention laptops? Seems like a false comparison. Linux laptops have a proven track record of being supported for >10 years. Since the GNU/Linux phones also run mainline Linux, they are effectively the same kind of devices.

1. No they aren’t. The hardware is different. Laptops are not the same as phones. It’s a false comparison.

They may run the mainline kernel, but they certainly don’t run mainline distributions usefully.

PinePhone isn’t even considered supported for consumer use today.

It’s sold for developers and most users say it doesn’t even work as a daily driver

2. Is the Nokia 900 supported? It’s not obvious. What makes you think it is? Even you used a ‘?’.

3. Why is this relevant?

Anyone who wants one can buy a PinePhone or Librem.

Why would someone who wants a GNU/Linux phone buy an iPhone?

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by joshspankit on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:48PM (#26995892)
Here’s another angle:

An iPhone 4 with the “last supported OS” is significantly slower than when it had the OS it launched with.

This is true across the board, which leads to this very convenient “they can buy used iPhones, but we don’t want them to use them, so we’ll gently guide them to new devices by making it inconvenient and annoying”

And before someone argues: Yes, much of the slowdown is because of new features, BUT Apple could simply allow users to disable most of them (such as ML-processing photos in the background, or deep-indexing file contents for spotlight. Those are not required for the phone to function as a phone).

If someone wanted to use the iPhone 3GS with the original iOS, not sync to the cloud, replace the battery every couple years, and install a firewall to prevent intrusion via known attack vectors, they could realistically have a perfectly snappy and solid experience in any future decade. Doubly so if they kept a 2.4Ghz AP when the industry is on some unknown future frequency.

However: Apple has taken many steps to prevent exactly that sort of thing, and they will continue to make as many as they can get away with.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:04PM (#26999996)
> An iPhone 4 with the “last supported OS” is significantly slower than when it had the OS it launched with.

This ignores the fact that later iPhones with the newest OS are significantly faster than what they launched with, which contradicts the conclusion that this is intentional.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by michaelmrose on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:45PM (#27000471)
The lawsuit they lost suggests that the court found it was intentional.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:21PM (#27000843)
The lawsuit might have suggested that but the court did not find any such thing.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by michaelmrose on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:37PM (#27001033)
Sorry they actually settled for 113 million to terminate the lawsuit. I normally read settled for 9 figures as admitting wrongdoing.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:23PM (#27001479)
Ah, so no evidence at all was presented to support your claim that it was international, and your suggestion that the court found it so turns out to be bullshit since the court didn’t even rule.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by joshspankit on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:55PM (#27001743)
Unfortunately we can no longer look at court decisions as arguments either way.

Large companies simply settle out of court in order to silence the facts.

- If they are wrong and are successful in getting out of it, they might walk away with a judge "confirming" that they did no wrong.

- If they are wrong and the evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive, they might write a cheque and walk away.

In either case the public does not have any convincing argument based on evidence. Therefore we have to go by subtext.

Apple was accused of slowing down the devices intentionally. They admitted the bare minimum (low power mode), then wrote a cheque that made the rest of the accusations go away.

To me, that's as convincing as a verdict by a judge.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:41PM (#27002055)
Large companies and small companies settle out of court when the cost of fighting the battle isn’t worth it - nothing more and nothing less.

We can deduce that there as no evidence of intent, since if the plaintiffs had such evidence they wouldn’t have settled for so little. Remember that this was a class action with a huge class, so the settlement amount is diminimis for the plaintiffs but a decent payout for the attorneys. I.e. they had no case, and Apple paid to end the inconvenience.

This is obviously nothing like a verdict by a judge and provides us no information about the facts whatsoever, because no facts were presented.

The presence of a court case does not provide evidence for the michaelmrose’s subtext.

If it did, you would be able to reference some.

Also, this further confirms that the original claim by michaelmrose that they lost a court case and that the court found intent, was complete bullshit.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Monday May 03, 2021 @10:08AM (#27025261)
I am impressed concerning how much you defend Apple. I suggest that you look at my favorites list about them. Maybe it will tell you that they aren't as good as would like to think.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by andrepd on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:09PM (#26996200)
Precisely, the iPhone does not work like an Apple ][ or an IBM PC. After "support" is ended you cannot install software on your device. How insane is it, I'll repeat: you cannot install software on “your own” device.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by colejohnson66 on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:56PM (#26997737)
I personally don’t care about installing my own stuff on my iPhone. I bought it knowing full well I couldn’t do it. But you’re right: when support ends, it is pretty crazy how the only way to install unapproved apps is through jailbreaks. If a manufacturer isn’t going to support a mass produced device anymore, they shouldn’t be able to just fold their arms and say, “we have a newer model!”
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by splix on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:34PM (#26996604)
You can redownload supporting apps, but the problem is that the official App Store doesn't have them once a new version of OS comes out.

I remember when in 2014 I decided to give away my unused iPad 1st gen, just as a e-reader. So I've erased it but no apps were supporting this device already. Even the official Apple Books app.

Yes, techicaly it wasn't bricked, it worked, you still can turn it on and off. But without software it's useless.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:05PM (#27000004)
Ok - but that’s true of any old device that developers are no longer targeting. Classic Macs for example.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by splix on Saturday May 01, 2021 @10:55AM (#27006808)
I understand that a company cannot keep all old software downloadable forever, but note that in this case it was just a four years old device.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:55AM (#27007275)
First gen is the operative word. That device is not representative.

4 years was an eternity in device capability at the time the first gen of the iPad was released.

I’m writing this on a 6 year old iPad Pro that I use every day. Everything runs on it, and it shows no sign of being too slow or even needing a battery replacement.

It seems like the problem has been solved.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by splix on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:24PM (#27016477)
It wasn't a problem with the device. It was Apple decision that one day disallowed to download existing working software. They had the software, and I don't think it was too expensive to keep it downloadable for a few more years.

Or you mean that there was a problem with Apple servers and now it's fixed?

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Sunday May 02, 2021 @01:48PM (#27017221)
No - I mean the problem is fixed in general. Not for this specific device.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by ska on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:16PM (#26995400)
It's only planned obsolescence if the lifetime of a product is artificially shortened by design choices. It's not clear this applies here.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:24PM (#26995535)
I would say it is artificially shortened by design choices. It is a perfectly capable device, the harware is still fast and secure. However, I am just not allowed to fix the software, even if I have enough resources for that. This is exactly why we need free software.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by ska on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:31PM (#26995645)
> I would say it is artificially shortened by design choices.

The design choices have to be made to artificially shorten the life, not for any other purpose. For example, I can make a device cheaper and use cheaper materials that wear out faster - that's not planned obsolescence. However if I include a little plastic tab that I know will break before everything else for no good reason other than making it break faster - that is.

I suspect you'll have a hard time arguing compellingly that the purpose of apples closed update system was to shorten the useful life, rather than as a side effect of other product and design goals.

Phones are sort of a bad example, because for a long time the replacement cycle was driven by actual technical obsolescence, arguably only relatively recently has this ceased to be the case.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:36PM (#26995713)
> the purpopse of apples closed update system was to shorten the useful life, rather than as a side effect of other product and design goals

So what is the reason to prevent updates of software after the support is over? This is a classical software anti-feature.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by ska on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:44PM (#26995838)
I suspect the main driver was consistency of experience. Obviously they didn't always nail this.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by google234123 on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:08PM (#26999362)
IT's a ton of work to make and push updates.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:48PM (#26999805)
I am not speaking about making updates. I am speaking about preventing users from making them.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:07PM (#27000030)
You know the answer to that - it prevent large classes of social engineering attack and is part of the overall security model.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @04:34AM (#27004474)
Even when the device is no longer supported?
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @12:13PM (#27007441)
I fully support allowing the device itself to have alternative OS installations after the end of official support.

The reason 1st gen iPads don’t have this is fairly obvious though - the unlocking feature is itself a likely vector for attacks e.g. by law enforcement unlocking tools, etc.

I’m not sure what it would take to enable it to be done securely without destroying the overall security model but it’s clearly not trivial, and would take some investment that certainly wasn’t possible at the time the 1st gen device was released.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by splix on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:12PM (#26996249)
I cannot replace a battery on a perfectly working iPad otherwise, and Apple is charging almost a price of a new device to replace it for me, i.e. they are basially forcing me to buy a new one.

Wondering, can that be called a planned obsolescence or not?

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by Karunamon on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:34PM (#26996592)
If we're talking about an unsupported devices, aren't the downsides of third party repairs basically moot? There are any number of above-board companies that you can ship your device to and will do a battery swap for you so long as batteries are available.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by splix on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:54PM (#26996903)
Yeah, that's what I did. Found an unofficial repair and replaced the battery for less that $100. Anyway, I don't think it should be so hard to replace a battery. And I still remember times when I was able to replace battery manually at home.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by ska on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:08PM (#26997100)
> And I still remember times when I was able to replace battery manually at home.

This is definitely an issue, but it's not the same issue as planned obsolescence.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:30PM (#26997407)
Why is it not the same issue? By preventing the users to replace the battery, you force them to buy a new device after a couple of years.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by ska on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:45PM (#26997599)
> Why is it not the same issue?

Because the design choices are pretty easily argued to have been made for reasons other than reducing user access, but have the side effect of reducing user access. Both size/weight constraints and case integrity drive you to the same sort of thing.

To be clear, I think it's fine to call out a company for planned obsolescence, and I think it's fine to call them out for emphasizing size, etc. over user serviceability. I just don't think it's useful to pretend they are the same thing.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:08PM (#27000041)
They don’t prevent users from replacing the battery. I’ve done it myself.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by michaelmrose on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:46PM (#27000488)
For many devices the devices themselves are glued making the process of just opening the case interesting and then require near complete disassembly to remove the battery.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:22PM (#27000861)
So what? That doesn’t prevent changing the batteries. I have done it myself, and Apple will do it too, as in fact do many third parties.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by michaelmrose on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:35PM (#27001014)
At minimum when a device opens up and swapping the battery takes 10 seconds near everyone does it themselves. As difficulty increases the propensity of users able to afford to do so trends towards zero. Imagine if a battery costs $200 and requires $100 in labor. If the cost at purchase is 400 and the value at end of warranty is $200 zero people will ever make use of this service and every device becomes trash after the battery wears out.

Artificially inflating cost of parts can trivially be used to enforce planned obsolescence.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:28PM (#27001521)
> Artificially inflating cost of parts can trivially be used to enforce planned obsolescence.

It could, but nobody has presented any evidence that Apple is doing this, and their business strategy is openly stated to involve increasing the lifetime of their devices, so that they can deliver services to more users, so this is just innuendo.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @04:35AM (#27004479)
> nobody has presented any evidence that Apple is doing this

Simply compare the cost of official Apple service and corrsponding third-party service.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @12:15PM (#27007454)
That is not evidence of anything. There are many reasons that third party service is cheaper that have nothing to do with some conspiracy by Apple.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:52PM (#27010221)
AFAIK the price difference is so huge that no reasonable explanation (except the "conspiracy", i.e., greed) is possible.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:31PM (#27011598)
I’d be curious to see your statistics on the price differences. Do you have a link?

Here are some reasonable explanations for how third parties cut costs without resort to a conspiracy:

1. Less warranty on repairs.

2. Lower cost substitute parts.

3. Lower quality control,

4. Less training for staff.

5. Lower profit margins, leading to unsustainable businesses.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by ska on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:41PM (#26996705)
> Wondering, can that be called a planned obsolescence or not?

I don't think it can, for reasons elsewhere in thread.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by shard on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:57PM (#26997754)
I'm going a little bit on a tangent here, and this may not apply so much to recent Apple phones, but Apple phones had planned obsolescence in terms of the design of their physical appearance such that you can tell almost instantly which generation it is. This allows broadcasting of status, that this person can afford the latest while that person can only afford to use a 2-year-old phone, thus artificially driving the upgrade cycle.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:36PM (#27000383)
That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones - they either pass them on or trade them in.

Arguably it’s the opposite of planned obsolescence - even used phones are not obsolete and are still in circulation.

It’s also worth pointing out that this is Apple’s stated policy - they want phones to last longer so that more people have them and they can continue to sell services to them.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:03AM (#27005972)
> That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones

This has nothing to do with the definition of planned obsolescence. It does not matter what people do with the old phones.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:59AM (#27007304)
It obviously does. If the phones are still in service, then by definition they are not obsolete.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:53PM (#27010228)
Reread the thread. In this thread, the OP is speaking about design obsolescence.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:36PM (#27011619)
> Reread the thread. In this thread, the OP is speaking about design obsolescence.

I don’t need to reread it. My response applies to design obsolescence.

Relatively few people upgrade every year these days. The fact that the old devices are still desirable negates the idea that people don’t want them because they look outdated. I.e. changes in design are not causing people to stop using the devices.

For design obsolescence to apply to Apple, workable devices would need to be retired from service early because they were no longer seen as desirable.

That isn’t happening.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by shard on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:05AM (#27021514)
I don't think what you are stating is the definition for planned obsolescence. For example, even though there is a used car market, the fact that someone upgrades their car due to fashion means it's planned obsolescence. In fact, that's where the term was born.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Sunday May 02, 2021 @09:57AM (#27015331)
> Relatively few people upgrade every year these days.

[Citation needed]

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:16PM (#27016436)
No - this is trivially googled.

Compare phones sold to phones in service.

Tens of millions vs more then a billion.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by Der_Einzige on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:53PM (#26997692)
We know for a fact that Apple was artificially lowering their battery capacity, and that's most likely just the beginning. The PR speak about it being done to protect batteries is BS and we all know it. It incentivizes more purchasing. Much like how the GTA5 loading bug was never solved because it led to more advertisements for digital currency being forced upon one's eyes...

Every update I get on my mac, or Iphone slows it down. Bloat and "protecting the users battery" are the root causes, and ultimately Apple is one of the best examples of a company "artificially shortening" things via design choices.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:09PM (#27000063)
> We know for a fact that Apple was artificially lowering their battery capacity.

This is completely false.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @08:35AM (#27005769)
Apple artificially decreased the performance (not lowered the battery), which is why they were fined.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @01:20PM (#27007980)
Firstly, thanks for confirming that that the parent poster was posting a false statement.

Secondly, as you must be aware, the reason Apple decreased the performance was to extend the useful lifetime of the battery.

The fine was because they didn’t explain this properly in advance, not because they did it.

They still in fact do alter the device performance to accommodate aging batteries and make them last longer.

This is a really silly issue to raise if the argument is about Apple shortening lifetimes of devices or batteries, since it makes the device usable for longer.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @02:08PM (#27008404)
Imagine your phone with a still good working battery gets significantly slower "to extend the useful lifetime of the battery"...
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @04:36PM (#27009594)
Imagine that!

To imagine it requires understanding how technology works.

Batteries are chemical processes - they degrade slowly over time. An older battery produces less power, and so can’t support the same peak performance.

You can therefore extend the useful life of the battery by throttling the CPU performance to within the power envelope provided by the battery.

It’s fairly simple to understand.

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by fsflover on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:56PM (#27010254)
Apple should simply allow easy replacing the battery and not deceive their customers with "helpful updates", which make devices slow. This is anti-consumer, as proven by the lawsuit.
Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @10:22PM (#27011841)
Apple does allow easy replacing of the battery. Just go into an Apple store and ask for a replacement.

Nothing was proven by the lawsuit, since it never went to trial, you know this so it’s unclear why you’d repeat this falsehood.

As for not your suggestion that Apple not slow the devices down to extend the battery life and have users just replace the battery, that seems misguided.

Why would you want users to be forced to buy unnecessary battery replacements and further damage the environment by wasting working batteries?

It’s much better for the devices to be able to continue to use the batteries for longer, don’t you think?

Re:It's your device, you should be able to repair it by zepto on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:55PM (#26999878)
Which Apple device do you own that behaves like this?

I have owned many and not one has become useless in this way, not has any I have every heard of.