But this lacks a nice and clean UI to watch Youtube, Netflix, etc. I wouldn't want to control a browser displayed on a TV with a wireless keyboard.

I've been doing it for close to 10 years. I hate trying to navigate on friends/parents smart tvs. They are slow, the UI doesnt always make a lot of sense, the cable provider guide always seems to be fighting with the smart tv guide/pages.

Is that really a nice and clean UI compared to Windows which most people are familiar with?

Things have evolved a lot in the last 10 years. I've had an HTPC for that long as well, and it has its place but if you spend a bit more than the $20 for the cheapest streaming sticks, any of the modern streaming devices are extremely snappy and responsive and much more enjoyable to navigate via a remote than dealing with a wireless keyboard and mouse. The smoothness of the video stream is also in general better from my experience than streaming via a webbrowser. And that's setting aside all the downsides of HTPC streaming due to losing out on 4K, HDR and 5.1 audio streams.

I love my HTPC, but its role has changed over the years in my living room.

I totally agree that Smart TV interface is abysmal. I bought the latest LG OLED with WebOS thinking it would be the closest to "the future". So wrong. The OS hangs consistently. Apps don't load. When you start adding streaming sticks and multiple remotes, everything gets confusing. Still. It's 2021.

I think this speaks to the opportunity ahead for TVs rather than an argument for attaching a PC. Why can't all these HDMI sticks just be virtual devices? Provide an app store that gives you a Roku or Firestick. Why is identifying me and signing into all my streaming services still so difficult and full of friction? There is so much runway for simply a better TV. Start with good hardware. Build up a modern operating system that is smooth and just works. Don't even have a built in remote. Start with the assumption that all my interaction will be with 3rd party remotes and make them all work with zero/one touch. When I start interacting with a remote, the TV should know what I am trying to do (PS4, Xbox, Roku, Apple TV, etc) and simply respond with the interface. The core HW operating system should be nearly invisible. Stay out of the way. No Ads. no app stores. No crap. Build all of that in layers on top.

Imagine a specific example:

1. I purchase a Roku _remote_.

2. I unbox the remote and point it at my TV.

3. My TV downloads the Roku virtual stick and starts giving me the Roku interface. In the background. As a user, I don't care about any of that crap.

4. Roku accesses a touchid or faceid to load my account.

5. Roku installs all my apps I use automatically.

6. The apps on Roku call Roku APIs to identify me and sign me into these apps automatically (Netflix, Hulu, etc).

With the right TV and _hardware_ OS, the TV experience could be so much better.

And don't get me started on channel guides. The whole premise of assuming events are pre-planned on a fix statically scheduled grid is soooo old school. Center the TV guide around "events" rather than a grid of time slots. Events are the centerpiece of live TV, from news to sports. You basically just need 2 flows to cover all of TV: on demand "content" and "events".

EDIT: I would also add some "pre" and "post" concept around events. This could hook social media into the TV. Every app from Clubhouse, Twitter, Live podcasts, etc. could plug into a pre or post show for key events they cover.

> 1. I purchase a Roku _remote_.

> 5. Roku installs all my apps I use automatically.

Maybe I'm missing something that should have been implied, but whose Roku is this (and how does it know), and why should your remote have any say about which apps (read: remote code execution) it installs?

Its your Roku hardware remote that you buy. When the remote is paired with the TV, the tv recognizes the remote (HW signed, TV manufacturer approves this whitelist), the tv downloads the roku operating system and starts running it. This simply replaces wasteful HDMI interfaces, SoCs, etc and provides hooks for the tv to have better control over the experience. You could imagine extending this to video game controllers like Amazon Luna or Google Stadia.

The experience is smoother with Roku TV. You only have one UI to deal with.

I don't have one, but I can believe it. However, as we have just witnessed, we can't lock ourselves into a single streaming provider as an OS. Business agreements can end. I think what we want with HW is the ability to use these providers as low-level apps. Start with the assumption that the TV is simply a pass through device but gives platforms control of the full screen only when _their_ remote is in use. Build the user interface around full screen control that is only pre-emptible with remote accessory.

It varies wildly my TV manufacturer. My parent's smart TV is god-awful to navigate. You have to go into an app to get to the streaming apps...like what?

But my TV has Roku built-in and it's smooth as silk for the most part. Most of the issues I encounter are app-related. Like HBO Max is really clunky, but Netflix is rock-solid.

Yeah, my Roku Streaming Stick+ plays everything just fine. The only thing I use Kodi on my Pi for these days is anime with SSA/ASS formatted subtitles since the Roku can only handle SRT format, which means you don't get nice formatting for times when there's one subtitle for dialogue at the same time as a subtitle for a piece of text

Maybe this is a semantics argument but if you have to add something additional to the TV for it to play well then it doesnt really seem like that speaks to the quality of the TV UI.

It was a lot better when MS still had Windows Media Center (last in Win 8.1). I could actually watch cable tv with a cablecard system through windows. Full DVR, accurate guides, able to use WMC remotes, could watch on any computer attached to the network, etc. It was one slick system.

Have you tried it? In my experience its far nicer then most "Smart TV" or media devices in a similar price range. (certain devices like the apple tv have acceptable UI's but they are a little pricier).

I personally use one with an integrated mouse and its very convenient https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Wireless-Keyboard-Control-To...

Couldn't you run Plex or similar as the UI?

I completely disagree. I have a Roku-powered TV, Amazon FireTV, Chromecast Ultra, and have used quite a lot of "smart TV" interfaces. They all suck compared to KDE + VLC + Firefox (with uBlock Origin). Smart TV/device interfaces aren't even in the same league!

Example: By the time the Netflix app is open in Roku I will have already found the show and have it playing on my Linux desktop in Firefox.

Not only that but the apps are severely limited in functionality compared to what you get on the websites for the same provider. Even just scrolling through shows/movies is a bazillion times faster and good luck trying to find a specific place in the middle of a show using a regular remote control! haha. With a mouse I can just click right in the middle of that progress bar and be done.

Then there's things like Funimation: Their apps all suck so bad that the website seems like a dream in comparison even though the website is so awful it makes web developers visibly gag. The benefit the computer has is that it's trivial to load up those same shows on pirate sites when Funmation stops loading/playing videos again (on any given day you could have about a 5% chance of a Funimation video actually playing).

I usually find the ui on desktop browsers to be most friendly to my needs. Couple that with all the customization options I have from it being a normal computer, it's by far my choice device for watching tv

Eh, it isn't great, but you get used to it and it is a hell of a lot better than dealing with all the bullshit of the various bespoke players.

Plex to chromecast works great for me

Does YouTube.com/TV work for you?

That seems to be a (delayed) redirect to the youtube.com home page, at least for me in Firefox on Ubuntu.

Use a smart tv user agent and it will work on a desktop.

Then you simply get to decide which one of these bothers you more:

- A wireless keyboard and web browser - Ads being mercilessly shoved down your throat

Or, for Youtube (I guess you could use the same device for Netflix, Plex client, etc.), you could get the best of both worlds: Chromecast-like controls for YouTube and an ad blocker (the info from that link can be adapted for a desktop): https://www.linuxuprising.com/2021/04/how-to-cast-youtube-vi...

You won’t be able to watch HD content on Netflix or Amazon Prime (at the very least) that way though. You can only get HD streaming via a browser on Windows, which appears to have an exception to the usual DRM rules.

edit: As pointed out below, Windows is implementing DRM via decoding in hardware, which WideVine (Google’s DRM layer) on desktop Linux doesn’t / can’t do, so there’s no special exemption here.

You can get 1080p with Netflix or Amazon Prime in Firefox on Linux. It just requires some addons to modify their client app js (because the DRM verification level is high enough, it's only their frontend that disables this)

I already get 1080p on Netflix in Firefox on Linux.

However, Amazon Prime on the same setup gets me 720p at most. (This is a regression because I _know_ I used to watch the first few seasons of The Expanse in 1080.)

Which add-ons allow you to watch Prime in 1080p on Linux? I wasn't able to find them.

Same experience here, Netflix works without too much hassle, but Prime is limited to a much lower bitrate than on Windows.

At one point I experimented a bit with making an addon myself, and it's possible to intercept the requests and spoof the UA/platform to get URLs for the HD streams, but then it goes to VMP/widevine and is a bit beyond my abilities. Best I could get was for the HD quality option to appear in the UI, but with a complaint that it wouldn't work because I needed to update or use a different browser.

Now pretty much the only time I use Prime video is for the occasional watchparty, and I'll just pirate the stuff I want to see in HD.

Except that the WideVine DRM library under Linux only does software decoding, so HD video tends to stutter according to the issue logs on said extensions on GitHub. Assuming you get it to work at all of course.

I haven't had any lag issues with it and my HTPC is running a 12-year-old processor with a 10-year-old AMD GPU. Maybe it's an Intel or Nvidia driver issue?

I'm running KDE and have it configured to disable the compositor when an app goes full screen. Maybe that's your issue? Try turning off desktop effects and screwing around with your compositor settings.

Edit: I want to point out that since my GPU can't handle 4k the desktop resolution is limited to ~2k (whatever the highest was that it can handle at 60Hz--I forget now haha).

I assume that that was a point in regards with $100 mini-pc (think ARM-based one). Your 12-year old device likely has more performance comparing to those modern and cheap pc's.

You can watch HD in the Netflix app on Windows if your hardware supports HDCP.

Edge on Windows also gets HD from Netflix and Amazon, because it uses the same DRM pipeline as the app does (Microsoft PlayReady).

There's no exemption from the DRM rules here, Edge and the app implement hardware backed DRM systems.

WideVine is level3 for browsers on the Desktop: https://go.buydrm.com/thedrmblog/why-google-widevines-drm-is...

I guess Windows streaming is going via PlayReady then.

Widevine is not used by Edge for Windows, as you say PlayReady is.

(Well, Widevine actually is also present for a site to use if you really want to, but other than being too lazy to have two license servers there's very little reason why you would.)

Microsoft have not ported PlayReady to other OSes, so Edge for Mac/Linux does use Widevine and gets Level 3.

Thanks for pointing this out, I wasn’t aware.

I have an HTPC hooked up to my LG C9, but an HTPC really is not a great option for streaming content if you have a reasonably good TV and/or sound system. You lose HDR and in most cases 4K streaming if you try to view content via a web browser for most streaming services. You also lose higher quality audio and 5.1 audio streams with most services when viewing through a web browser. And then there is the issue that browser based streaming is just never quite as smooth and stutter free as streaming on any decently capable modern streaming device due to the native hardware acceleration and the fact that you don't have an entire OS with a bunch of other things running on it competing for CPU/GPU cycles at any given time.

The LG C9 processor is quite powerful and extremely snappy. My HTPC is almost always an inferior option on that front. I would rather recommend someone buy something like the nVidia shield instead of an HTPC if they mainly consume content via streaming services. I still like my HTPC for other uses and it is also great for Zoom/Skype calls with friends and family from my living room.

Audio, in particular, is much less likely to "just work" on a $100 computer than a Roku. Ditto things like HDR.

[edit] by "audio" I mean, in particular, sending the right codecs to get surround sound for a particular source, when you ought to have it.

Absolutely true. Primitive stereo is good enough for me, but not for everyone.

It costs 129 today at amazon. Plus 10 for the keyboard it is 140.

For 30~50 I can get a Fire TV that can plays for all the sources that I use (Netflix, Amazon Video, and Diskey+), and save on the electricity bill.

Sure. But my comment was a response to the problems people are having with these streaming devices. Plus, with the mini desktop you have a full-blown Linux computer. You could even record TV on it (though I haven’t tried this).