News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by andix on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:27AM (#26967053)
Let's see if they try to search the Signal servers for any evidence. And if there is really no information stored.

Or if that will disrupt Signal services. The central, non-distributed architecture is always a big concern against Signal.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by swiley on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:50AM (#26967588)
Even if it's decentralized there's only one client and they can always push updates to male it send keys/messages back for targeted users.

Smartphones in their current form cannot have secure messaging.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by chippiewill on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:00AM (#26967948)
> Even if it's decentralized there's only one client and they can always push updates to male it send keys/messages back for targeted users.

The clients are open source, presumably you can compile and install the client from source to avoid a bad update being pushed.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by krageon on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:30AM (#26968169)
You cannot reproducibly build signal, what you get in the play store is effectively closed.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by gruez on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:55AM (#26968308)
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by tialaramex on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:52AM (#26968290)
You can build the core code, reproducibly.

As I understand it if you take this code, and the binary blobs of the code that does stuff like video calls, you can verify that's what is inside your Play Store APK.

Now, if you're a tinfoil hat wearer obviously you can consider that maybe the video call code secretly reads your messages and sends them to the FBI, or indeed that the Android OS just ignores this APK and when you install it you get something else entirely anyway.

But it sure looks like the source code is in fact for the app you get.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by dane-pgp on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:32AM (#26969802)
It would be nice if Android let you check the hash of the APK against a Binary Transparency log hosted by a third party. Google have even written extensively about this idea:

https://transparency.dev/application/add-tamper-checking-to-...

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by psanford on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @11:02AM (#26970171)
Android does verify that any new versions of an APK are signed with the same signing key as previously installed versions. So you would have to compromise the signing key held by the developer in order to push an evil APK.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by tallanvor on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:45AM (#26967872)
Signal can stop you from using the service until you update, but they can't force you to update their app.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by mikro2nd on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:25AM (#26968537)
They could, but they evidently don't (stop you from using the service). I have a phone with a very old version of Android such that newer versions of Signal can't be installed. So it carries this really antiquated version of Signal, and, sure! some of the newer features (groups, some of the image handling) don't work. Still works just fine for the core purpose (voice, texts) though. As far as I'm concerned, kudos to Signal for maintaining full backward compatibility as far as is reasonable.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by colejohnson66 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:50AM (#26968727)
Tangent: I’m not versed in Android (iPhone for me), but what’s stopping you from installing a newer version of Android (like LineageOS) yourself through rooting?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:20AM (#26969658)
Usually, it's the fact that the device drivers are included in the image.

I do wish we had kept from the existing desktop OS ecosystem.

Apple's update schedule is a lot better in this regard for me (iPhone SE still gets iOS 14 FROM 2016)

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by BlueTemplar on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:16AM (#26969617)
Someone has to make that version first. Each phone model needs a specific one, I am guessing because of the way that drivers are handled?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by mikro2nd on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:35AM (#26969164)
Device not supported.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by hans1729 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:11AM (#26967684)
>Smartphones in their current form cannot have secure messaging.

What about self-hosted matrix/element, used from the browser?

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by uuidgen on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:30AM (#26968581)
Anything that is in web browser (like e.g most uses of protonmail) offloads all security to the security of the TLS connection.

Unless you also ensure proper certificate pining, if someone can get a court order for any accepted CA to give them a valid certificate for your domain you won't notice a thing while that someone gets your browser to run any code and e.g. dump keys, certificates or messages.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by dane-pgp on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:44AM (#26969936)
What's missing is a way to pin web apps so that you always get the previous version (and can opt in to subsequent versions after checking their hash from a trusted source).

There is a clever way of doing this, using a bookmarklet, a dataURI, and SRI, but the UX isn't great.[0] If something like Hashlinks[1] were supported by browsers, though, this could work quite nicely.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17776456

[1] https://w3c-ccg.github.io/hashlink/

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by toast0 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @01:34PM (#26971995)
> if someone can get a court order for any accepted CA to give them a valid certificate for your domain you won't notice a thing

Certificate transparency logs make it possible to notice. I'm not 100% sure, but I think all major browsers require certificates to be logged at this point; and there are several services that you can list your domain and get notified when a certificate is issued.

You (or your users) may still be MITMed with the rogue cert without notice in the browser, though.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by tialaramex on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:27PM (#26974435)
> I think all major browsers require certificates to be logged at this point

None of the browsers require by policy that certificates be logged. What this means is that the existence of a certificate which wasn't logged is not by itself a misissuance. Whereas for example the Apple 398 day rule is a policy rule, so a certificate which breaks the rule not only won't work in Safari, but it is also a misissuance and your whole CA might get distrusted by Apple.

However, all the major browsers except Firefox require that certificates they are shown which purport to have been issued after a mandate are presented with SCTs. We'll discuss what that means below. For Chrome that mandate begins after 30 April 2018, which means it doesn't catch certificates issued in a small window of time when certificate lifetimes up to 39 months were still allowed at the start of 2018, the last of these certificates would expire at the end of next month, May 2021.

In practice no public CA was selling unlogged certificates intended for web servers by the point the mandate triggers, it would have been a needless business risk to sail so close to the wind, so chances are no certificates in this category exist today.

Signed Certificate Timestamps are issued by the log, they are like "proof of posting" when you send a letter. The log warrants that any certificates for which it has issued SCTs will appear within the Maximum Merge Delay (for public CT logs this is 24 hours).

That might seem like a long time, but it's a do-or-die promise. Logs which experience a problem making them unable to show a consistent log with the corresponding certificate within 24 hours are disqualified and you need to start over, because without such a rule obviously you can smuggle anything into an outage.

Google and Safari's policy (I don't know the Edge policy) dictates two or more SCTs, at least one to be from a log controlled by Google. So this gives Google the handy property that they don't need to trust any combination of third parties, you must show all certificates to Google itself.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by kenniskrag on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:16AM (#26967715)
I think the parent poster wanted to highlight the auto update feature of phones.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by tormeh on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:56AM (#26967929)
There are alternative clients for Matrix. You don't need to use Element.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by kenniskrag on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:08AM (#26968006)
which android can force update or remove if they have to.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by BlueTemplar on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:17AM (#26969635)
How can Android do that ?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Cullinet on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:06AM (#26968390)
it may be worth mentioning that every Sony phone still supported except for this year's models are officially supported by Sony for AOSP.

https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/

furthermore Sony provides blobs to enable full feature sets of the cameras and even the 120Hz refresh options that Sony doesn't enable with stock firmware / Android. This gets you notch free real UHD (but not DCI) 4K 120HZ HDR screens and the same performance as a Galaxy S10 for ~$150 | XZ Premium / the XZ Premium 2 model adds a 12MP monochrome camera and wireless charging for a bit more... up to the first Xperia 1 models are supported including dual SIM SKUs. I'm seriously thinking of going back to either of these from the iPhone 11 Pro Max 512GB I'm typing this on, because the PDF reading experience (even in 2K standard resolution) of the Sony was a unique experience of being able to read full page papers set Euro A4 and 8pt and less text and no problems for my 6th decade eyes.

if you're in the UK, www.aaisp.net is a isp that hasn't reached the statutory customer base numbers to require keeping the extensive and extremely detailed records of communications UK laws require. The company is privately owned by a PhD and Reverend and the people recognise you by voice if you establish a relationship needing the contact. Andrews and Arnold they can fulfil our compliance with encrypted call recordings by email and ability to configure your landline numbering plan over cellular for PBX equivalence. (I dunno if it's helpful but if you do speak with Phil Boddy I think he'll be willing to confirm that John K isn't a commission agent only a impressed customer about to resurface with new business because there's nobody else short of starting your own MVNO..

Incidentally in Europe only Andorra has cellular operators who don't spill location metadata with every SMS.

this story involves Vodafone Greece deleting potentially vital call records evidence of a assassin of a minister : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%...

I can't find it (on my phone) but the fuller story is that due to high licensing costs of traditional (not vRAN) basestation equipment features, common practice in Europe retains virtually no call records evidence / data and overwrites everything on cycles only long enough for billing.

if anyone is interested in the public spectrum of 5G applications and the acquisition of test sites in London, my lock down research got as far as only needing to be formalised and pursued. I have put much more interesting details in my profile concerning this because I am as serious as I'm probably crazy but at the lowest utility I'm trying to find London interest in getting quality time with some installed, legal, vRAN systems and possess the necessary means and certifiability.

what gets me about the Huawei affair is how much straightforward argument there is to drop this monoclonal monopoly supplier in preference for massively more flexible and capable equipment from a plethora of suppliers who need to be made to do bake offs again like we used to (I remember reading 3Com white papers proudly reporting successful bake offs and recognising that that company was going places..) I mean Joe Public understands the arguments that matter to common sense and national security simply follows with unavoidable obviousness. Microsoft and Huawei were the only phone manufacturers who provided user defeat switches to 2G and hence the stingray intercept vulns. Both also made surprisingly good hardware, or could do. I'm old enough to worry about reds under the bed but I think it is positively the most amazing thing how given today's sensitivity to ecological impact of industry waste that we cannot require the reuse of the tools and process equipment created for closed product lines. Of course I understand the tax write off and the trade secrets concerns. But the incredible cost of manufacturing today surely has to force us to deliver mothballed factories to people who have ability to use them. At the very least I would use my day to be dictator to enforce the auction of all such manufacturing facilities.

I just decided against cutting my diversion into factory and product design recycling because I think far too much of the irresponsible attitude towards security comes out of the assumption that everything is going to be forklift upgraded every 2 years. This is precisely what is happening with cellular networking. The very same thing is opening the door to China to try and drive through standards and protocols that suit China for 6G and next generation Internet. Samsung basically just ignore the existence of every phone after 2 years from launch. Not from the day you purchase your Samsung phone. From the product launch date you have 2 years of maybe possibly a few updates and patches. There is no way that anyone would have tolerated this 40 years ago. Why now? I'm concerned that there's a more serious systematic failure of the human cognitive capability.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Y_Y on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:09AM (#26968889)
This is very interesting, enough to have its own thread even.

Now I'm wondering what it takes to get a phone contract in Andorra.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by BlueTemplar on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:23AM (#26969693)
I assuming that mandatory keeping connection logs for a year for ISPs and cell carriers was typical in Europe?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by swiley on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:43AM (#26979893)
Maybe but

1) You don't get push notifications on most mobile OSes

2) Mobile users have poor control over their browser (if any.)

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by circularfoyers on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:49PM (#26986515)
Addressing your first point, web push notifications works persistently on Firefox and Chromium on Android.

And I'm not sure what you're referring to by "control", but Firefox on Android allows you to install addons and use about:config (Chromium can't do the former and doesn't have an equivalent for the latter, even on desktop).

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by goodpoint on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:59AM (#26968800)
Reminder: 1) Signal, Matrix, XMPP and so on do not protect you from timing correlation especially between users connecting to the same server.

2) The social connection graph is easy to extract when people communicate often

3) The more data is captured, the more likely it is to find suspicious coincidences that are actually false positives

4) Not everybody lives in a healthy and safe society

Please consider recommending Briar or similar onion-routed messengers instead of Signal, Matrix, XMPP

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by airhead969 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:43AM (#26968248)
Yep. Lavabit. Centralized is never raid/DDoS-proof.

Okay boys, take all these servers because evidence is hiding on them and these lefty pinkos aren't helping us find it. Let's get them back to the lab to find out what that evidence is.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by sicco on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:54AM (#26968758)
Afaik, Signal uses AWS. Is a raid/confiscation of AWS servers even possible?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by heavyset_go on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @02:50PM (#26972720)
Yes, they're just one court order or subpoena away. With a gag order, you'll never even know it happened.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:57AM (#26968784)
Why raid when they can just ssh in?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Y_Y on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:21PM (#26971128)
It's cheaper.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by PeterisP on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:02PM (#26976258)
Of course, Amazon is a US company, so with the proper subpoena from a US court AWS technicians will [have to] deliver images of the virtual servers and/or remove them and/or modify them or whatever else is requested, without the right to inform the customer if the subpoena says so.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by dylan604 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:33AM (#26969815)
Wouldn't the system see a raid's confiscation of a server as just a down machine and do the normal thing to bring up a new server to handle the load correctly? "Okay boys, now go get that server. Wait, now that one, now that one"
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by BlueTemplar on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:24AM (#26969712)
It's always possible, but the collateral damage might be pretty bad...
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by ransom1538 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:13AM (#26969582)
Eh. I have worked with US investigators quite a few times. They really try to work with you. If you don't have the information and you tell them you don't have the information - they pretty much drop it. FBI/local police are not interested in pulling servers and doing forensics. This isn't what their prosecutors want. Prosecutors want: "Hey, give me all data you have for IP address X." If you honestly can explain to them you don't have it -- they just drop it move on to easier cases IMHO.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by movedx on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:56AM (#26967224)
Agreed. I really wish they would go decentralised. If they did, I'd order up my 1gbit/1gbit dedicated link at the office and offer it up immediately.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Phenix88be on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:06AM (#26967662)
I used to think the same, but I changed my mind after this talk : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8

There is a lot of very good point in this talk by Moxie, it's a bit long, but worth it.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by consumer451 on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:20PM (#27000830)
Thank you for sharing that talk! Very thought provoking for sure, and wow what a brave guy for giving that talk to that crowd.

I also learned a lot about why Signal does what it does.

I highly recommend this video to everybody, no matter your background or current work role.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by zdkl on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:08AM (#26967305)
If you want something decentralised what's wrong with doing the same with Tor and/or Matrix?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by andix on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:12AM (#26967339)
Matrix is not ready for non-technical people. Way too much stuff to consider as a user. It's similar to PGP a technology that will probably never go mainstream.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by 1MachineElf on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:38AM (#26969203)
I used to believe the same as you about the usability of Matrix, but then I discovered the Fluffy Chat matrix client. It aims and looks to be as simple to use as WhatsApp or Telegram. Check it out if you haven't seen it: https://fluffychat.im/en/
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by bayesianbot on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:46AM (#26967560)
Is there? I'm definitely the kind of person who wants to set up my own server and bridges for it at some point, but when I tried Matrix for the first time last week I just created an account at matrix.org, installed a quite polished client and just started chatting.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by mulander on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:53AM (#26968296)
Last time I tried matrix, and mind you that was over 3 years ago. Was with riot.im and trying to use the e2e encryption. The major surprise was not being able to suddenly decrypt older chat messages when OpenBSD changed the User-Agent string for Chromium which as I understand was used to establish the device identity. This is not something non-technical people can or want to diagnose.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by miloignis on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:55AM (#26969399)
It's significantly better now! They've done a lot in the last 3 years, and during that timeframe was when cross signing and e2ee DMs became default. It's not perfect, but it's by far the best I've found for my priorities, and I think it's much more reasonable for regular people now. And if not now, hopefully soon! As a sibling mentioned, some of the alternative clients are also getting good.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by wayoutthere on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:21AM (#26967745)
The iOS client (Element) is garbage unless they fixed it in the last month. I suspect that’s what they’re referring to.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by BlueTemplar on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:25AM (#26969727)
Comparing Element to PGP is ridiculous.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by capableweb on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:15AM (#26967711)
Surprisingly, the response from the Signal team hints that Signal is sometimes P2P. This is the first time I hear about this, what is it referring to exactly? I, like you, thought Signal was 100% centralized.

> [...] because the data is transmitted peer-to-peer or relayed through a third-party server [...]

Attachment A, Section 2C

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by giords on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:19AM (#26967729)
I believe that voice and video calls work using WebRTC, which is a P2P technology
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by tialaramex on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:27AM (#26968142)
The options are, either you do peer-to-peer and so your peer must learn the IP address they can reach you on, or Signal sits in the middle of the traffic relaying between the parties.

This trades two different privacy risks, would you prefer that a hypothetical adversary who has successfully seized control of Signal can see which IP addresses are communicating or would you prefer if people you accept realtime calls from or make calls to learn your IP address?

You get to pick which you prefer in the Signal app preferences. [Edited to add: Specifically, if either of you insists on having Signal relay the traffic, then that's what has to happen, otherwise it is peer-to-peer.]

As with anything else involving IP addresses, you could choose to go via Tor, with all the consequences of that.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by capableweb on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:28AM (#26967786)
WebRTC (still) requires a centralized server in order to setup the connection (via STUN/TURN), so if so, Signal could be forced to turn over any logging they have of those setup requests.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by kodablah on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:12AM (#26968038)
You can use existing decentralized systems, e.g. bittorrent DHT or IPFS DHT, to handle signaling and not require a centralized server. STUN is only needed to retrieve the public IP, which you may not need to use (and didn't have to be centralized). In some heavily NATd cases, you'd need a TURN proxy, but not often.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by capableweb on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:27AM (#26968552)
Both of those DHTs are using centralized signalling servers to first be able to establish any P2P connections. Maybe there has been some recent invention in DHTs, but AFAIK, 100% P2P discovery is still not "there" (meaning "accessible, fast, not using too much resources and can find other peers")
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by dane-pgp on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @10:58AM (#26970113)
I don't know if any systems actually work like this, but wouldn't it be possible to include in the client a short hardcoded list of entry points to the network which are all run by different entities (in different jurisdictions)?

Each entity could have their own public key (also hardcoded into the client), and the client could pick one at random and then bootstrap you up to the entire P2P network, where it would find the other hardcoded identities (or N out of M of them) to confirm you were seeing the whole network.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by capableweb on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @11:49AM (#26970748)
Yes, this is essentially how "P2P bootstrapping" works today. BitTorrent does it via "trackers", IPFS does it via their "bootstrapping" list (known IPFS nodes with static IP/DNS) and Bitcoin used to do it via IRC.

Probably is that all of those techniques, are still centralized.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by dane-pgp on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @11:57AM (#26970832)
Is it still centralized if the tracker/bootstrapper nodes are all operated by different entities in separate jurisdictions?

I suppose you could argue that the list itself is centralized, if there is only one list, but if the protocol is an open standard then different clients could ship with different lists.

Would you say that the web PKI is "centralized" because most browsers agree on which CAs to trust?

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by sfifs on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:46AM (#26967876)
Very likely they don't log. Otherwise they'd have had to disclose
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by wolverine876 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @03:36PM (#26973191)
There's a setting in Signal where you can force it to always (or never?) use P2P.