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Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by bipson on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:22PM (#26960277)
"I can't agree with you"

"I cannot continue this relationship"

"I can't kill this guy"

"I just can't eat meat anymore"

"I cannot continue like this"

These are all examples where someone clearly could for physical reasons, but they can't for other reasons they are bound to, whatever these reasons are.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:25PM (#26960314)
Technically you are right.

However the key here is exploiting the ambiguity.

‘We are unable to’ is a cowardly way of saying ‘we choose not to’, or ‘our policy dictates’.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by CrendKing on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:50PM (#26960614)
If Google chose to use the "uncowardly" wording, I'm sure someone would just post saying Google is arrogant and cocky bastard. No matter what someone will find some point to complain. Human nature.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by javajosh on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:07PM (#26960832)
"People will criticize no matter what you do" is a great line. It gets used a lot - not so much here, I've noticed. Probably because it doesn't address the particulars of any criticism, and instead provides a nihilistic view of the world where "real improvement" is impossible.

"We're unable to" shifts responsibility to something vague, unspecific. It's like the "run around" only with this phrase you've been redirected to /dev/null. I'm glad the OP said something.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by judge2020 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:22PM (#26964253)
It's shifting the blame to you - something in their policies prevents them from reinstating your account without allowing you to break the contract. There's no ulterior motive, it's simply the best wording for saying that you still violate some policy.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by lmm on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:03AM (#26965436)
If they want to say that they won't reinstate your account because you're violating a policy, they should say as much.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by judge2020 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:09AM (#26965480)
The original email is context for the review rejection email by saying

> In your case, we have detected invalid traffic or activity on your account

The rejection email isn't isolated, so when it says "unable" it's conveying the implied message "unable to reinstate your publisher account <without bending the rules because we think our ad fraud detection systems were correct>".

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by lelanthran on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @02:49AM (#26966477)
You all make good points in favour of both sides of the argument, so I upvoted every post in this thread.

The only takeaway is that there is no obviously correct wording for google to make when wielding the banhammer.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by javajosh on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @03:44AM (#26966800)
>The only takeaway...

Well, that is, strictly speaking, a false statement. I agree the discussion has been civil; but consider that the support to Google's position requires adding phrases to their statement which fundamentally change the statements meaning.

I'm not sure what it's called, something like the opposite of a strawman attack. It is indeed simple to defend a statement when you give yourself permission to rewrite it in a post hoc fashion. It's an argument I find uncompelling, no matter how civilly it's presented.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @11:21AM (#26970406)
> The only takeaway is that there is no obviously correct wording for google to make when wielding the banhammer.

This is true on kh because ‘correct’ is both a relative term and a black and white one, which doesn’t apply to the situation we are discussing. You have to decide what you value, and perfection is not an option, so there is indeed no ‘correct’ wording, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t better wordings, nor does it make the one they chose ok.

It seems to me that there are many ways Google could be more honest and less opaque.

It seems like quite a few people here (myself included) value those traits and would like to see Google adopt them.

That won’t immunize them from criticism or make everyone agree with their judgements, but it would still be better.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by mlyle on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @03:43PM (#26973269)
Here, I think the concern is that the alternative wordings considered/proposed are possibly open to just as much criticism and negative readings as the original. That is, others consider it difficult to improve here.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:54PM (#26960663)
That seems like a dismissal that could be applied to any criticism of any corporation.

Can you explain what value it adds in this specific case?

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by matz1 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:04PM (#26961536)
What value to add to criticize this specific case?

Whether they use "unable" or "choose not too" shouldn't matter.

Just treat it the same.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by atat7024 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:37AM (#26969194)
Holding companies to the basic standard of good customer service like we used to.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by xmprt on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:03PM (#26964141)
> No matter what someone will find some point to complain

I don't think there would be many complaints if Google didn't take down apps for vague reasons.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by TheRealPomax on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:53PM (#26960661)
If it's based on a real policy that can be verified by others, then there is no ambiguity here. "We reviewed your case, and based on our policy, we cannot reinstate your account. Because if we did, we'd be the ones violating our policy, and someone -including you- could then actually sue us for unfair business practices, rather than merely complaining about overly restrictive policies that are blindly enforced through a system that is hard to penetrate".

No lying, no ambiguity. They can't reinstate this account.

Should they change their policy so that after that change, they can? Maybe, but good luck getting them to.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:24PM (#26961043)
They can always either change or make an exception to the policy.

A policy is just their way of doing things, written down.

It’s not magic.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:38PM (#26961193)
That's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement, which can be a problem, especially when contracts reference the policy.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by judge2020 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:24PM (#26964265)
To clarify your comment, this is exactly what OP was referring to with

> someone -including you- could then actually sue us for unfair business practices

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:00AM (#26965413)
That doesn’t really change anything. It’s still their policy to change. They still decide when to review the policy.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ImPostingOnHN on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:22PM (#26971140)
Changing your policy to be more friendly to all users moving forward isn't selective enforcement.

To reiterate, "policy" is just explicitly specifying "that's just the way we do things around here"

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by TheRealPomax on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @01:58PM (#26972174)
They can certainly change it, thus changing what they can do, in the future, but they can't make exceptions. A policy, written down, becomes a contract as far as the law's concerned. Contract changes are fine (provided all parties involved are then allowed to cancel the contract), but contract violation is not.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Thursday April 29, 2021 @11:12AM (#26982208)
This isn’t accurate.

There are plenty of policies that state that they may be changed by one side or that exceptions may be made in cases where the wording doesn’t cover the intent.

The Apple store policy for example says this.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by IncRnd on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:50PM (#26961346)
> If it's based on a real policy that can be verified by others, then there is no ambiguity here.

In this particular case, the ambiguity is exactly that - Google didn't say what what real policy was broken or how.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by TheRealPomax on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @02:00PM (#26972198)
Pretty sure if you file the proper paperwork with google's legal department, you can get a copy of the exact text in question. The downside of business in the US: companies are by law required to make documents available on request, but they are in no way required to make that easy.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by IncRnd on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:50PM (#26974021)
Getting the text of the policy isn't the whole issue. As you pointed out both the policy and method of verification need to exist, or there is ambiguity.

Given the information in the article, you can't verify any of the traffic or actions that were supposed to break policy. After all Google wrote, "We understand that you may want to know more about the issues that we’ve detected. Because this information could be used to circumvent our proprietary detection system, we’re unable to provide our publishers with information about specific account activity."

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by LocalH on Friday April 30, 2021 @11:01AM (#26994335)
Imagine if the justice system worked this way.

"We understand that you may want to know more about the crimes that we’ve detected. Because this information could be used to circumvent our proprietary policing system, we’re unable to provide defendants with information about alleged criminal activity."

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @03:20PM (#26973024)
> Pretty sure if you file the proper paperwork with google's legal department, you can get a copy of the exact text in question

You’d think there would be examples of people doing this, but so far I haven’t heard of them.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by 7OVO7 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:48PM (#26961311)
the first sensible and rational comment I see here (I hope more comment like this in this post).
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by tshaddox on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:49PM (#26962148)
And yet no one, including people in this thread who are claiming that the intent of Google's wording is to deceive, are actually the slightest bit unclear about what Google means.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by saurik on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @07:34PM (#26963460)
It isn't about wanting to deceive, it is about their seemingly unwillingness to admit; these are related, but not at all the same. It is the same kind of semantic difference people think is really important when discussing scenarios like "you didn't misplace my item on accident, you discarded it on purpose and we both know that: I want to hear you say it out loud".
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by tshaddox on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @08:09PM (#26963790)
But, as others have mentioned, it's extremely standard to use phrasing like "can't do that" and "unable to do that" like this. It's simply not reasonable to interpret this messaging as intended to claim that it's physically impossible to do the thing. I totally understand being upset with Google's policy and decision here, but this particular criticism about the wording they used is simply disingenuous.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zepto on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @11:26AM (#26970460)
> it's extremely standard to use phrasing like "can't do that" and "unable to do that"

It’s standard corporate doublespeak. Just because a lot of corporations do something by habit, doesn’t make it disingenuous to critique.

Google in particular tried to be a different and less evil kind of company.

We know that ship has sailed, but it doesn’t mean the values that it spoke to are any less important.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ncmncm on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @08:34PM (#26963948)
We all know what it means because we are familiar with numerous other cases of such dissembling. That does not make it any less dishonest; it just means they are members of a big, dishonest club.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by tshaddox on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @08:41PM (#26963994)
It’s not dishonest when it’s how everyone uses language and how everyone else understands the language.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Quekid5 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:44PM (#26964405)
This is how corporations use language. It's about "optics".

I'd personally call it an 'absuse' or 'misuse' or... 'misleading use' of language, but you do you.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ncmncm on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:02PM (#26964130)
It is not how everyone uses language. I do not use language that way. If you used language that way, you would be dishonest. It is how dishonest corporations use language.

That we are aware they are dishonest does not make them less so.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by tshaddox on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:04PM (#26964146)
It’s not dishonest because it is language used with a certain intended meaning and that intended meaning is clear to everyone including the people complaining about it. That’s precisely what normal, honest usage of language is: you have an intended meaning and you effectively convey the intended meaning.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ncmncm on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:40PM (#26965288)
Brazen lying does convey an intended meaning; an action that speaks louder than words, it always conveys the same meaning: "You're a fucking peasant who has to take what you get."

Sometimes that's true. Most times they hope you will believe it's true. Many people have been trained to believe it, true or not.

A business concerned you may take your custom elsewhere will not insult you this way. It is the mark of a monopolist or a crook.

I will make a point of remembering your relationship with truth.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by krageon on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:25AM (#26969052)
> It is the mark of a monopolist or a crook.

It could just be that they know every other option will treat you in the same shitty way. I suppose you could stick that under 'crook'.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ce4 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:27AM (#26968551)
And deliberately so, to defuse the situation and not anger the customer further. The "we are" is of the same origin. It creates the assumption that the customer is dealing with "some Google team" that made the decision, when in fact it was one person or even just a stupid algorithm.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by robaato on Monday May 03, 2021 @02:50PM (#27029125)
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by gralx on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:19PM (#26961707)
"We refuse to" might be clearest of all.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by KMag on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:07PM (#26965066)
There's an important distinction between externally and internally imposed restrictions. (In the case of killing, hopefully both restrictions are in play.)

The language is intentionally deflecting responsibility by obscuring the source of the restriction. They're trying to reduce argument by giving the impression responsibility exists in some other unidentified channel.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by hossyposs on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:44PM (#26961254)
Yes, but without those reasons these are just ambiguous unprovable statements.

Without reasoning we cannot tell if the auxiliary verb is even correct.

“I can’t eat meat anymore because it’s illegal”, really should read “I shouldn’t eat meat anymore” as although it’s a bad idea you’re still physically capable of eating meat.

I think the issue we’re talking about is ambiguity, and this really just emphasises the point.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pseudalopex on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:32PM (#26961893)
Those express moral convictions or imminent psychological crises. A corporation experiences neither.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Blikkentrekker on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @07:48PM (#26963602)
All of the sentences you give would be quite different if “can not” were replaced with “to be unable to”.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nxpnsv on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:55PM (#26960691)
Yep they are all lies. I _almost_ can't agree with you more.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by antonvs on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:02PM (#26960773)
This all depends on having free will. Otherwise, those statements could all be literally true.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by inopinatus on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @07:45PM (#26963575)
cannot != unable