News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by furyofantares on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:00PM (#26949411)
If so (and I've often wondered the same) then it's quite a statement about how much better we might be able to structure our society to solve collective problems we are totally capable of solving without waiting for a major global disaster.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by tootie on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:20PM (#26949577)
When I'm in charge of some software platform that I know has reliability or security problems that no one is willing to prioritize, I have a foolproof strategy. One, write down the list of biggest problems to solve. Two, wait for an inevitable disaster. Three, when leadership is in a panic I present my list and ask for top priority.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by eyelidlessness on Monday April 26, 2021 @09:35PM (#26950740)
This was my approach until it failed. The people in a position to decide were so preoccupied by (understandable) emergent secondary effect issues that communicating the underlying issue was basically a waste of time.

The only way I could get to solving the problem was by drawing a line in the sand and refusing to work on symptoms anymore. And the only reason that was effective was because my team was so understaffed that my refusal effectively brought all feature work to a halt.

Even then, “solve the problem” buy in was shaky and constantly dismissed/side-stepped. It took a full end to end proof of concept exploit against a production system, being incredibly careful not to actually cause harm, to get support from the top (which I conjured in less than an hour and regret holding those cards as long as I did, but I was seriously worried about how I could demonstrate the vulnerability without exploiting it harmfully).

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by yaml-ops-guy on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:24PM (#26949604)
How do the conversations typically go when asked "did you know this could happen"/"did we see this coming" or has no one bothered to ask that question yet during the RCA process?
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by jcims on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:32PM (#26949674)
Generally not well.

If you haven’t been shot down by an expendable in the past, the best course of action is to find the most complementary position historically taken by leadership, twist to your objective and then credit them publicly with the vision.

The gap can be reconciled privately later.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by lostcolony on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:37PM (#26949705)
"that no one is willing to prioritize"

You missed that part. "Here is the email chain it was discussed in, including the bit where I raised the concern of what could happen" is generally pretty solid CYA.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by yaml-ops-guy on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:54PM (#26949864)
I actually did not miss that part, but thanks for calling it out regardless. The question was instead borne out of curiosity as to know how the follow up and subsequent discussions fare even with CYA in pocket.

What has your experience been? Have you had success reprioritizing necessary and critical fixes that were previously not in scope postmortem?

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by lostcolony on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:02PM (#26949930)
Oh yes. There is nothing quite like "it cost us money" to suddenly change leaderships' priorities. I've watched as product priorities went from "keep bolting on features" to suddenly "we should rewrite this problematic monolith" when thigns fell over and money was lost.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by yaml-ops-guy on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:12PM (#26950005)
See that makes sense, perhaps it make too much sense. My last two jobs I fought the same battles of "I discovered x, we really should do something about it because it can have really bad outcomes" and having the concern depri'd and ultimately blow up in all of our faces.

And in both situations even when said thing exploded in a bloody mess I struggled to get the buy in to give the fix the full attention it needed because "we're losing money not having these features" (I mean no, you're not, but ok)

Hence my incredulity but honest curiosity, being an ops guy who over-prepares and tries to keep his leaders as informed and prepared to make a decision as possible, but still feels like he's often left holding the bag is dang exhausting, you know?

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by 8note on Monday April 26, 2021 @09:44PM (#26950830)
Sounds like that's solved by having the list as an action item.

Yes, we knew about it. Also, here's all these other things we know about that will result in similar catastrophes

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by kaetemi on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:30PM (#26949653)
That's when you show the other hundred lists of solutions to things that could go wrong.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by yaml-ops-guy on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:32PM (#26949668)
I see.

Maybe I'm overthinking it (this happens sometimes, I'm working on it), but waiting around for a security crisis to happen when a solution is in sight, even when facing difficulty prioritizing the work seems dangerous to one's career.

But I admit not knowing a lot of things most engineers just assume are a given, lately.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by ethbr0 on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:02PM (#26949932)
It's the difference between working in a push vs a pull shop.

In a push shop (e.g. most non-tech businesses / legacy tech), one is forbidden from working on a thing without management signing off on it and pushing the task to you.

In a pull shop, management communicates priorities (increase reliability) and engineering teams pull tasks to fulfill that.

Believe parent is talking about the former, which is always a cluster&#+@ of technically clueless middle management.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by yaml-ops-guy on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:13PM (#26950016)
I like that dichotomy. If you or anyone else reading this have any thoughts on it, what are some good questions I ought to be asking during interviews to determine what kind of shop I'm talking to might be?

That's been a real struggle lately, and I want to get better at this to avoid these kinds of push shops you're describing

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by ethbr0 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:24PM (#26958869)
IMHE, people who work in push shops typically don't realize there's an alternative, which makes identifying them somewhat difficult.

On a side note, I've found push shops tend to be highly correlated with length of position (i.e. "What's the longest someone has ever been on this specific team without transferring or pursuing new opportunities?"). But that's probably more accurately identifying heavily regulated industries, which tend to be push shops do to the Byzantine sign-offs required.

I would say don't ask, "Tell me about a time your team originated an idea, took it to production, and the net impact." Because even push shops have the odd exception that can be rattled off. It's more talking about the typical workflow.

The best I could probably come up with is "Take me through a normal task for your team, from idea origination to prod deployment."

If they start with "We were told to do X", then "By whom? And what did they tell you?" (To the latter, did they specify exactly how or just the end goal?)

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:32AM (#26952726)
You’re not overthinking it. Those of us who wait for catastrophe aren’t silent until it happens. We’re just ready and willing to reiterate what’s wrong when it shows up.

Everything about that situation is dangerous to our careers: saying something, saying nothing, saying a lot, stomping our feet, saying we told them so.

But don’t second guess yourself. You’re expressing exactly the right attitude toward addressing things before they’re an emergency. The people who are using those emergencies to get things done agree, we’re just accustomed to getting shut down unless there’s no other option.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by toyg on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:37PM (#26949703)
That’s a sort of reverse-Disaster-Capitalism.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by wombatpm on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:38PM (#26951304)
The Shock Doctrine applied to product management
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by paxys on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:14PM (#26949530)
A lot of stuff magically happens when there is absolutely no other alternative. See – all the companies that weren't bankrupted by employees working from home even though for years executives have said that would be the case.

The problem is really of incentives and risk aversion. When there's a tough decision to make without enough clarity on the outcome, people will always prefer the status quo.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by galgalesh on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:41PM (#26949739)
The terrifying truth is that we have no idea what the future holds and what the long-term result will be of our actions.

Since the future and the result of our actions is uncertain, society is basically executing a search algorithm. This covid crisis has focussed society on finding a local optimum. Though this focussed search will only get us so far. To find a better _global_ optimum, we need a lot of random, seemingly counterproductive search.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike a lot about the current state of society. But I think it's irrational to think that we can predict what will be useful in a hundred years.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by Denvercoder9 on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:26PM (#26949620)
It's also a question of return on investment (not necessarily in the monetary sense). Due to the high costs of the pandemic, we've also deployed lots of resources to combat it. But that doesn't imply those resources wouldn't create more value for humanity if they weren't redirected.

Keep in mind that if the pandemic results in extermination of the common cold, in the alternative world without a pandemic we would most likely also achieve it, just slower. It isn't a matter of now or never.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by dylan604 on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:27PM (#26949637)
Sure, all you need is a man behind a microphone to make a comment like "First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of ____". Make it a national interest, and have the "people" behind it. However, I don't think you could unite the "people" behind anything anymore. Half will be for it, the other half will be against it just because the other half want it.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by gnicholas on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:08PM (#26949477)
I'm not sure it's an indictment of our pre-2020 society that we didn't try to cure the common cold sooner. Imagine it costs $20 billion to have a 90% shot at coming up with a cure. You might spend a ton of money and come up with a cure, but it's also possible that you'd spend all that money (which could have been spent on more immediate/important issues) and end up with nothing.

The situation is different when COVID is a catalyst because we are already spending $19 billion (for example) on a COVID cure, and along the way we have learned that if we spend another $1 billion there's a 90% chance we'll cure the common cold.

Having been forced into this situation, it makes sense to go the last mile. That doesn't mean the whole trip would have been clearly worthwhile from the start.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by coldtea on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:14PM (#26949528)
>Imagine it costs $20 billion to have a 90% shot at coming up with a cure. You might spend a ton of money and come up with a cure, but it's also possible that you'd spend all that money (which could have been spent on more immediate/important issues) and end up with nothing.

On the other hand, it is an indictment when that's a concern, when a private company trivially spends comparable amounts for buying things like Instagram and WhatsApp to push more ads, milk more personal details, and poison more minds with BS and waste more personal time...

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by techrat on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:51PM (#26951392)
The 'common cold' is any one of hundreds of different viruses... with many different types of viruses within those hundred+ that are commonly spread.

Covid is a specific class of virus (coronavirus) of which there are relatively few variants.

If it cost $20 Billion to deal with Covid, you'd have to spend at least 100 times that for each and every individual strain of virus that tends to be viewed as one 'common cold.'

Oh, and we've already been trying to cure the 'common cold' for decades. The problem is that there's just too many of 'em.