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Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by paulpauper on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:49AM (#26891223)
Pundits have been making this argument since 2010 about runaway inflation and about prices being unsustainable. Yet prices keep going up and inflation remains low. Maybe it is best to just ignore those people. There is no evidence either of USD decline either. Foreign currencies, especially currencies of emerging markets, have fallen considerably against the dollar in recent years.

If there is runaway inflation, real estate would be a good hedge. Inflation is not really a concern for Americans because all global wealth tends to be measured in US dollars anyway. It's not like Americans become poorer due to inflation, because all their wealth is denominated in dollars.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by thorwasdfasdf on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:05PM (#26891446)
We need more data on what prices really are. things like the big mac index, that measure prices independently and actually report just the prices, without quality adjustments. This will give us a good upper bound on what inflation actually is, instead of having to rely on the CPI's questionable "adjustments"
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by svachalek on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:15PM (#26891601)
Shadowstats tracks the inflation numbers using the government's old formulas (pre-gaming)

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by fshbbdssbbgdd on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:42PM (#26893788)
These numbers don’t seem plausible. Compared to nominal GDP statistics, they would imply negative real growth since 1980. This is incompatible with some periods of low unemployment that occurred since 1980 (eg. the late 90s). It implies that the US has constantly been in a recession for decades. Also conflicts with other hard-to fake stats like increased power generation and freight shipping since 1980.

Edit: found this quote from the creator of Shadowstats that they don’t actually calculate their own inflation numbers, but instead add a fudge factor to the official numbers. http://econbrowser.com/archives/2008/10/shadowstats_res

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by bondarchuk on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:31PM (#26894349)
Wow, thanks for digging that up, shines a very different light on the shadowstats site which gets thrown around a lot (and I'm guilty as well..).
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by chii on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:09PM (#26898305)
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by FredPret on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:13PM (#26893387)
Technological improvements make this so hard to measure, even if we ignore the temptation to game the numbers.

New products, better products, many old products replaced by new ones... it’s so much more complicated than the classical economics textbook case of guns & butter.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by wallacoloo on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:01PM (#26894682)
> Yet prices keep going up and inflation remains low.

I’m struggling a bit with this. Isn’t “inflation” defined as the state where prices for the same good keep going up?

It seems to me you’re focused quite narrowly on currency inflation, which like you point out isn’t that much of a concern for the average American. What they care about is inflating prices of the things necessary for a decent living: food, housing, utilities, clothing, etc. “I have to do more work to afford the same things”. Colloquially, that’s the fear most people are referring to when they discuss “inflation”. Maybe people who have actually lived through inflationary spirals think of it differently though.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by giantg2 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:04PM (#26894728)
I think there's some disagreement on whether the CPI is really an accurate representation. For example, healthcare can vary wildly and can be very expensive.
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by euthuxnetux on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:01PM (#26891409)
Once anything ends petro-dollars the USD is toast.

Belt-and-Road has a decent chance of succeeding here, imo.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by sidlls on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:44PM (#26894479)
On what do you base that opinion? To hear the Chinese government you'd think Belt-and-Road is next to perfection in terms of infrastructure, while oppositional organizations tend to portray it as a relatively hastily rolled out, poorly constructed shambles. The truth is likely in between. And regardless, you still have to show how that might cleave petro from USD.
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by euthuxnetux on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:43PM (#26895189)
Fair.

Definitions: There are two sources of demand for USD. One is the ability to purchase oil, and the other is organized international crime. I would consider crime a fair-weather investor, so the big demand for USD is really based on the ability to purchase oil.

First, examine the history of shipping tonnage [1]. Observe how quickly Chinese ports have come to dominate all world shipping. This is representative of the general trend of global supply chains coming under the centralized control of the Chinese government. Nothing presently happening in the US will improve our trade balance in the near term.

Second, examine the beneficiaries of belt-and-road [2]. All of these countries will have an incentive to have reserves of CNY. Some of these countries are significant oil exporters. If oil exporters start hoarding and regularly trading in CNY, then it's a small stretch for, at least some of them, to start trading oil for CNY.

Third, since oil is fungible, any nations trading oil for CNY will peg oil to the Yuan in addition to the Dollar.

Fourth, the governments of some nations, notably Iran, publicly believe that petro-dollars have motivated the government of the US to engage in warfare in and near their countries. They are furthermore publicly opposed to this, and publicly supportive of China ousting US hegemony.

Then, my argument. Belt-and-road gives a large number of nations a reason to hold and trade in CNY. It's a small stretch for some of those nations to start trading CNY for oil as well. Belt-and-road nations will have an expanded connection to the Chinese military, and success of belt-and-road is a face-saving issue for the Chinese government. That means efforts to oppose it could spark military tensions with the Chinese. This makes it plausible that wars to preserve petro-dollars are unlikely to succeed in belt-and-road nations.

There is almost no international demand for USD to acquire US produced goods or labor. This means USD is unlikely to succeed in an environment where it has to compete with CNY as a reserve currency for oil.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_by_cargo...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by mariojv on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:48PM (#26898521)
I liked most of this post and am interested in the impact of ports on currency demand.

However, how can you say there is little demand for USD for US produced goods or labor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

The US has a higher nominal export value of any country except China. Both economies are not highly dependent on exports, but their economies are so huge that they still dwarf the next highest countries on the list.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by euthuxnetux on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:35AM (#26902542)
That's a great point.

I guess I'd say that while we export a lot, we import even more. We have a trade deficit with all of our largest trading partners.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-trade-...

This is possible only because of the general demand for dollars. If the demand for trade with the US was based only on our goods and services, then we couldn't import as much as we do. If demand for dollars dried up, then our spending would be constrained and our quality of life would drop. So I think, anyway.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by FredPret on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:56PM (#26893157)
“Yet prices keep going up and inflation remains low” <- this is logically impossible.

Also, fiat currencies can fluctuate against each other and still go down as a group. The Dollar can get “stronger” by losing value slower than other currencies. From a straight-forward point of view, wealth is denominated in dollars. But in reality, it’s denominated in value, in good things you can buy.

By this definion, we’re all richer than Crassus in some ways, affording things like global connectivity and vaccines with ease. In land, gold, and influence old Crassus was still in a league of his own, however.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by saint_abroad on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:43PM (#26892015)
> It's not like Americans become poorer due to inflation, because all their wealth is denominated in dollars.

What of the nearly 40% of Americans that can't cover a surprise $400 expense, due to having no wealth?

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by pirate787 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:53PM (#26892175)
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by saint_abroad on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:16PM (#26892536)
Reality is more nuanced than that. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jan/29/howard-sch...

The survey actually states, "Four in 10 adults, if faced with an unexpected expense of $400, would either not be able to cover it or would cover it by selling something or borrowing money." https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-economic-we...

Nevertheless, that doesn't strike me as having wealth.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by jandrewrogers on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:04PM (#26893260)
The key point is that most of the people "borrowing money" have the means to pay cash but choose not to. It is a question of how they could pay, not if they could pay.

I borrow money all the time when I could easily pay cash. Credit is more convenient and doesn't cost me anything. Similarly, I have a car loan even though I could have paid cash for the car. It is sensible finance.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by bombcar on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:35PM (#26893685)
“How would I pay a $400 bill” will always be “charge it” unless there’s a cost associated- getting a check or cash from the bank is a hassle.
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by sumtechguy on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:30PM (#26893623)
borrowing money right now to buy something is not a bad idea... (i think) If they have just printed a ton of cash (they did) that means at some point it will correct. Meaning you in the long term might beat the interest rate if inflation gets higher than that. just an idea.
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by edoceo on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:05PM (#26894062)
a loan (with interest?), on a depreciating "asset", which obligates higher risk-premium (ie:insurance) does not seem sensible to me (and never has when I run the numbers).
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by jandrewrogers on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:20PM (#26894225)
It absolutely makes sense as a matter of elementary finance to use a loan when interest rates are low rather than paying cash -- I was buying a car regardless. The interest rate on the loan is far below my average rate of return investing the same amount of cash. The profit on the invested cash exceeds the loss from loan interest; I get to keep the remainder.

Similarly, I put all of my daily expenses on credit. I pay off all of that credit at the end of the month. I am still borrowing money but I am paying no interest on it.

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by thekyle on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:05AM (#26898940)
What did you invest the cash in? Corporate bonds?
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by jandrewrogers on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:55AM (#26899216)
No, bonds are a poor investment right now. I generally invest in equities.
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by thekyle on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:10PM (#26909989)
Well that is an interesting strategy. Seems kind of high risk, high reward since equities could crash and not recover before your loan is due.
Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by bzbarsky on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:43PM (#26897744)
What the survey _actually_ says (and what the politifact fact-check does not dig into) is that if you ask people how they would deal with an unexpected $400 expense, given them a list of possible options, and tell them to select all options that would apply 40% select at least one of the "selling or borrowing" options. Note that if you add up the percentages for all the options in that survey, it adds up to 143%, because you can select more than one option.

The problem is that it's impossible to tell what's actually going on due to this survey design. For example: what is the overlap between the set of people who check "just pay it out of checking/savings" (50%) and the set of people who check "charge it and pay off in full at the end of the month" (36%)? I would rate both answers as "these people have the $400 on hand". The fraction of people who checked at least one of these options is somewhere between 50% and 86%, depending on how much overlap there is. And you can't tell, from this survey, where it lies in that range.

Similarly, you can't actually conclude the "Four in 10 adults, if faced with an unexpected expense of $400, would either not be able to cover it or would cover it by selling something or borrowing money" thing from these numbers, so the executive summary is rather misleading. Politifact takes that summary as an accurate summary of the survey results, but it doesn't seem to be. As far as I can tell, that 40% comes from adding up non-mutually-exclusive percentages. It's the equivalent of claiming that 86% of people would just pay it off based on the above 50% and 36% numbers.

I should also note that the survey included full-time students under "adults", and if I had an unexpected $400 expense at various points as a student I would have absolutely had to borrow money to cover it. Looking around briefly, there are ~20 million full-time college students in the US as of 2020, which is ~6% of adults. While it would obviously better if college students had larger cash cushions, a college student borrowing money from parents to pay $400 is not the mental image most people have when reading the executive summary here...

Now the fact that no matter how you slice these survey results no fewer than 8%, and maybe up to 50% of non-college-student adults don't have $400 on hand if they need it is still a significant problem from my point of view. Especially because I really doubt it's as low as the 8% option. But I am also quite certain it's nowhere close to 40%....

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by saint_abroad on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:18AM (#26901431)
> what is the overlap between the set of people who check "just pay it out of checking/savings" (50%) and the set of people who check "charge it and pay off in full at the end of the month" (36%)?

The report plainly states:

> When faced with a hypothetical expense of only $400, 59 percent of adults in 2017 say they could easily cover it, using entirely cash, savings, or a credit card paid off at the next statement (referred to, altogether, as "cash or its equivalent") https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-economic-we...

The 4 in 10 comes from the very next paragraph of the report:

> Among the remaining 4 in 10 adults who would have more difficulty covering such an expense... https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-economic-we...

and, from the very next figure in the report, none of the 4 in 10 would use "cash or its equivalent" to cover such an expense. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-economic-we...

From this data, it is reasonable to conclude that "Four in 10 adults would not use 'cash, savings, or a credit card paid off at the next statement' to cover such an expense."

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by bzbarsky on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:43PM (#26905575)
Thank you for the links; that clears up where the claim is coming from. I really appreciate that.

What I don't understand is what the report bases this claim on. The actual questions asked and answers given that correspond to the conclusions you link to are presented in https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-appendix-a-... and https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-appendix-b-... respectively, and the only questions I see that involve the $400 bit is are EF3, EF5B, and EF6B.

Now it's possible that there is additional data that they have but are not presenting in the appendix but are using to generate their conclusions, including data like how many people marked both "pay with cash" and "pay with credit card now, pay off at next statement". If that's the case, I wish that data were actually available.

For example, given the "could easily cover it, using entirely cash, savings, or a credit card paid off at the next statement" phrasing it's not clear to me how they code someone who checks both "pay cash" and "borrow from family". Are they included in the 41% or the 59%? Or were there just 0 such respondents so this is irrelevant?

I would love to trust that people are drawing the right conclusions from their data, but would really prefer that raw data were published so the conclusions can be indepedently verified...

Re:Making sense of what’s going on in the housing market by rootusrootus on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:38PM (#26892888)
I think it is interesting that the writer of that article pointed out that the total adds up to 143% because multiple choices were allowed, but then argues that the real number [of people who can actually afford $400] is 86% by adding two of the choices. The entirety of the 36% could potentially be included in the 50%.