News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by mauvehaus on Saturday April 17, 2021 @02:38PM (#26846403)
Confession: as a recovering programmer who made a career change to non-programming, it took at most 30 minutes to say "fuck it" and go with Squarespace.

I've never been on the web side of things, but I knew enough HTML in the early aughts to put up a basic informational website. After digging in to some sites I admired, I decided that it was too much distraction from my actual work to roll my own.

Granted some of this complexity comes from the legitimate need to support mobile gracefully, but damn are there layers upon layers upon yet more layers of stuff just to get some pictures to show up nicely with some text and look consistent across devices.

Props to everyone who does this for reals and does a good job achieving that consistency. For my money, I'll hire it out.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by dleslie on Saturday April 17, 2021 @03:02PM (#26846579)
FWIW, services like Squarespace are devouring the VPS and small-site design industry. Rolling your own services, managing them with cPanel, and paying local kids to build and design it is a quaint throwback.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by runawaybottle on Saturday April 17, 2021 @10:05PM (#26849188)
It’s non existent. It’s weird how people were obsessed with coal miners losing their jobs, but right here in tech we literally saw a profession vanish. There is no ‘website developer’ anymore, not really. It just ... went away.

That group had to shift overnight (in relative terms) to app development. This might be more foreboding than people realize. Aside from those who need to write complex queries stitching big data together or generating reports, will we need a typical backend engineer ever again? How complex are schemas ever going to get that a UI can’t do it (and generate the corresponding api)?

It happened to the first version of the frontend developer and I think backend is next. Then frontend again at some point, and Data people have another thing coming when the backend folks need to find another job when theirs goes away.

If tech is going to replace industries, it’s going to start with replacing parts of itself first. We’ll be the first to know how this is going to go down.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by ReactiveJelly on Saturday April 17, 2021 @11:03PM (#26849481)
I'm not a web developer, but at work I run a couple small app servers for internal tools.

They have business logic specific to our product, and owned by the company, so although I'm doing a lot of pointless "plug together HTML" work for my learning, I'm also doing stuff that, AFAICT, has to be original code written by me.

Did I manage to successfully duck out the entire web trend already? When I was a kid, the web barely worked. When I was in college, web apps were a strange novelty Google was working on. When I started my career as a developer, I heard murmurs that web was the only kind of developer left. 10 years on, I'm still working steady and still not a web / mobile dev. I learned a little TS and started using Rust for backends, and that's about it. I knew SQL from college. The web trend came and went and I only learned how HTTP works in the last 5 years. Doesn't seem like the hardest thing in the world.

Is it just a combo of luck and privilege that I missed it?

> If tech is going to replace industries, it’s going to start with replacing parts of itself first. We’ll be the first to know how this is going to go down.

Probably. At first it was funny - Software was a coal vein that just kept going deeper and deeper the more we dug, and high-level languages kept lowering the barriers to entry, making more programmers who each made more money.

Some day the vein's either got to run out, or widen so much that everyone is a programmer getting paid nothing. Since I have enough money to save, I'm hoping to retire before the sigmoid inflects fully.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by runawaybottle on Saturday April 17, 2021 @11:28PM (#26849590)
I’d pay close attention to it. We don’t talk about the death of website development as a career because app development was available for everyone to transition to, so it mostly got ignored. But it happened, and there was nothing anyone could do about it. It’s a dirty little secret that if we honestly told new people switching to web dev ‘hey, yeah, just so you know, our jobs as we knew it kind of vanished once’, they’d think twice. The other dirty little secret is we almost sent all the work to India once. The new dirty little secret is there’s going to be apps like Airtable which will be another rug pull when Enterprise stops giving a shit about custom branding.

If businesses didn’t start moving their apps off Desktop and into the browser, what the hell were we all going to do? We’d have to goto the Java bootcamps, instead of the web app ones.

Pay attention because I don’t think business wants a fancy new UI and backend every few years (especially in the Enterprise space). I think we’re going to be done with this too.

They will one day just load all that crap into Airtable and standardize business tools industry wide.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by xupybd on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:46AM (#26851383)
Air tables is a sign of this gs to come but we are not there yet. Our head of sales wants to use an air tables like product but upper management will not yield, we need a real CMS. I think this sort of thinking will delay the adoption of such tools.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by imbnwa on Sunday April 18, 2021 @09:30AM (#26852270)
Yeah, not just devs, but armies of designers, product people, managers all distinguish themselves with minute product differentiation, a large majority of the industry runs on _not_ standardizing data and UI. There's more inertia here than just whenever the accountants notice the cost difference. You'll see people retry outsourcing before you see standardization if I'm understanding this conversation correctly
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by LordOfWolves on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:15AM (#26849979)
Will we not need some sort of interface for the ordinary user to perform perhaps unordinary action on said data (the same data that’s in airtable)?

The command line can be daunting until you play with it a bit and I know many web devs try to avoid it as much as possible while working.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by aliswe on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @01:57PM (#26878175)
Wordpress
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by dleslie on Saturday April 17, 2021 @10:16PM (#26849251)
App Development is the next to go; there's already a handful of competitive tools that will build an App, complete with cloud services, without any need for writing code.

And yah, there's only so many ways to write CRUD, auth, profile, and presence; backend is already commodified as B2B products.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by xupybd on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:47AM (#26851387)
I've been hunting for good low code CRUD tools. I'm not having a lot of luck finding any good ones.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by arey_abhishek on Sunday April 18, 2021 @07:17AM (#26851524)
Try Appsmith, I'm a founder of it. Easy to build CRUD apps using pre-built UI components that talk to any database or API. Check out our repo here: https://github.com/appsmithorg/appsmith
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by cglace on Sunday April 18, 2021 @09:29AM (#26852261)
And yet I’ve never worked on a product that was just simple crud.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by runawaybottle on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:26PM (#26854953)
Then you aren’t thinking hard enough.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by blacktriangle on Sunday April 18, 2021 @01:00PM (#26854165)
The difference between web devs and coal miners is that coal miners were losing their jobs due to the government regulating them out of business, web devs were losing their jobs due to underlying changes in technology.

We have a precedent for dealing with government intervention in established industries which usually involves providing support to transition to other industries. Fisheries management is full of examples of government paying fishermen to fish less for example. Yet somehow coal miners became a target of derision by a certain branch of American politicians who gleefully cackled about regulating them out of work.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by cutler on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:07AM (#26849723)
Meanwhile the web development jobs market is booming like never before. WordPress and Squarespace aren't the answer to everything.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by AlchemistCamp on Sunday April 18, 2021 @05:04AM (#26850933)
A lot of back-end people have already moved into ML or blockchain and I expect the trend to continue.

Devs have been so resilient because learning new things has been a part of the job description for decades.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by earthboundkid on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:40PM (#26855086)
TIL, I don’t have a job? Guess it’s an Office Space situation. Better get my own stapler.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by Melkman on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:03AM (#26890572)
Can you move your desk to the basement ? And while you're there....
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by scsilver on Sunday April 18, 2021 @02:55PM (#26855217)
Web devs learned how to program, coal miners didn't.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by tommilukkarinen on Sunday April 18, 2021 @03:08AM (#26850427)
This is an essential part of software design today in General. If a part of your system takes time to develope, it should be an instinctive signal to look an alternative. When all of your time is spent on creating value for the customer instead of tweaking technology, you are on the right path. If you find yourself tweaking, you need to stop and look for alternative approach. This does not mean hoarding more tools as I have seen many do, because tools have a maintenance cost.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by volkk on Saturday April 17, 2021 @02:46PM (#26846456)
what kind of work did you get into after programming out of curiosity? rare to see people go the other way
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by inglor_cz on Saturday April 17, 2021 @03:37PM (#26846837)
Not the OP, but I left professional programming to become a writer (in Czech, not in English; pardon my mistakes).

It actually has something in common, you still write structured text for living, though your target audience are now people, not machines. Some readers commented that they find my style clear and understandable; maybe it is a carry-over from programming, where you cannot be ambiguous.

But I find writing for people much more enjoyable than writing for computers. As a computer programmer, you mostly receive negative feedback: something stopped working and the users are often angry or frustrated. As a writer for people, you receive more than a few thank-you e-mails from your readers, which brighten your day.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by kbenson on Saturday April 17, 2021 @06:58PM (#26848183)
> As a computer programmer, you mostly receive negative feedback

FWIW there are different types of writing and different types of programming.

Writing copy for a bank will probably generate a lot of feedback about mistakes that need to be fixed.

Writing code to reduce annoying monotonous tasks for coworkers so it takes ten minutes instead of two hours will get you a lot thank yous from your coworkers, and will also brighten your day.

It's all about what your job is, and how close you are to the people you are affecting.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by inglor_cz on Sunday April 18, 2021 @04:46AM (#26850862)
This is a good observation.

The software that I spent most of my time with was a communication tool. So whenever something broke down, people had problems calling or texting one another. This pissed them off, naturally.

OTOH now my bestsellers are about half-forgotten events from world history. Aside from a weird e-mail I received from an even weirder Stalin-apologist, people generally enjoy this kind of reading and do not feel angry about it.

If, on the other hand, I were an investigative journalist and dug out dirt on politicans and mafia, the tone of the e-mails from readers would definitely get rougher, to say the least.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by kungfuscious on Saturday April 17, 2021 @04:10PM (#26847060)
Writing human-language and programming indeed have a lot of skill transfer. They're both writing after all. But most importantly it's the ability to clearly communicate ideas and organize thoughts.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by jdkoeck on Saturday April 17, 2021 @03:54PM (#26846963)
Hi, I'm really curious, what do you write exactly for a living? Do you write fiction books, non-fiction books, blog posts, technical documentation?
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by inglor_cz on Saturday April 17, 2021 @04:01PM (#26847000)
1. Political commentary for a local newspaper. They pay reasonably well. 2. Popularization of science and technology for a few web outlets. 3. Books about interesting historical events, these are by far the most popular and earn me majority of my writing income. 4. I dabbled a bit in fiction, but long forms like novels seem to be out of reach for me. My strength is in shorter texts that can be written in an afternoon. 5. A free blog that comes with an e-shop where my books can be bought.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by tasuki on Sunday April 18, 2021 @11:29AM (#26853304)
Mind linking any of your work?
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by inglor_cz on Sunday April 18, 2021 @12:51PM (#26854064)
This is my profile at Goodreads.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/18339067.Marian_Kechli...

Everything I write is in Czech, though. Automatic translation from Czech to English sucks.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by tasuki on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:13PM (#26999421)
Thank you! And don't worry I'm Czech :)
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by nitrogen on Saturday April 17, 2021 @03:03PM (#26846591)
rare to see people go the other way

I suspect this is literally true, but only because we don't see them. I've heard second-hand the story of a top developer at a famous unicorn who just couldn't keep up with all the stimulants everyone was using to code more and burned out, bought a cabin in the woods, and became a hermit.

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday April 17, 2021 @03:15PM (#26846686)
> all the stimulants everyone was using to code more

That's interesting. Do you mean Adderall/Ritalin?

That stuff has a relatively fixed useful half-life. It doesn't work for as long as people might think. It also doesn't actually make thinking clearer. It makes people feel as if they are thinking more clearly. I don't feel like looking for it, but this has been studied and reported, somewhere.

If you are referring to crank, well, the half-life of that stuff is even shorter...

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by nitrogen on Saturday April 17, 2021 @10:48PM (#26849405)
Never tried any of them myself and don't know which they were referring to, but the other replies are probably in the right direction.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by dleslie on Saturday April 17, 2021 @05:47PM (#26847718)
Cocaine, MDMA and LSD seem to be favourite drugs around town, here in BC. I mean, besides the usual marijuana, tobacco and beer.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by bnjms on Saturday April 17, 2021 @06:30PM (#26848011)
Amphetamines, cocoon, and modafinil are the likely targets. Other than that look up stimulant nootropics.
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by mauvehaus on Saturday April 17, 2021 @10:50PM (#26849411)
OP: I build furniture now, but I still lurk here because the news is interesting. Sometimes there's even overlap :-)
Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by dopidopHN on Sunday April 18, 2021 @05:51AM (#26851140)
Really? I see a consistent trend of friends and ex coworker exiting the technologies and engineering space to go toward either agriculture, manual crafts and artisanat.

I thought is was obvious. It’s even some type of cliché.

But... now that I’m writing this. All those folks are either French, German or Central European. I currently lives in the US and I see more folks doing bootcamps to archive better income and address their debts.

Hmm. I would be curious to see number about that, because obviously it’s highly anecdotal.

Exemple :

- starting to roof painting company

- starting a small farm business ( direct to farmer market type )

- starting a goat herding business

- becoming a wood worker

- becoming a car mechanic in a communal garage

- becoming a teacher ( of non tech things )

- become a bootcamp teacher

- becoming a kumbutcha brewer

I know myself that I will burn out ( in a soft way ) of tech roles.

To clarify : those folks where able to do it because :

- their state offer reconversion package

- they have tech money

Re:Everything Easy is Hard Again (2018) by meremortals on Saturday April 17, 2021 @07:36PM (#26848406)
looks like OP got into woodworking based on his profile: https://www.longwalkwoodworking.com