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Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by titzer on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:10PM (#26826154)
I come from a long line of farmers. My father was the last of our family to try to hold onto the farming tradition. He grew up on a farm, along with all my aunts and uncles. His generation was the first go to college. He chose business. He made a ton of money, and hated it. After leaving the business world in the mid 1980s to return to farming, it was not the same, and he soon returned to what was effectively day trading in the early to mid 1990s.

The transformation of farming is a direct result of corporatization and globalization, like almost every other sector of the economy. It's just more of the machine eating the world. Small, family farms, the kind that my ancestors toiled on, since unrecorded history, literally centuries, back to central Europe, were chewed up and spit out by the machine. The forests, the land, the local wildlife, now, too, the soil, all chewed up and digested in the pursuit of the one thing that the machine really craves: money.

It's the legacy of our entire economic focus on profit, growth, scale. No big conspiracy, no evil bad actors you can hate forever, just the summation of our value system expressed in the invisible hand of the market, jostled or cajoled here and there by policy, or retarded briefly by it, but always pointing in the same direction, eventually to consume all the natural resources, dipping over the threshold of sustainability to the reservoir of resources behind it, extracting and emptying it, until eventually there is nothing left.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by tharkun__ on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:34PM (#26826405)
I'm not sure how much this actually scales and makes enough money but it sure is an awesome tale (saw the movie on Netflix - https://www.netflix.com/ca/title/81031829):

https://www.biggestlittlefarmmovie.com/

Your dad might love it, even if just for the nostalgia.

That said, I think some of the lessons in there are awesome. Both the ones about biodiversity but also perseverance in the light of 'disaster' striking and staying strong and going on with the biodiversity path instead of just resigning and saying "yep, alright, Big Farmer is right, this doesn't work".

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by stefs on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:47PM (#26827159)
it's a wonderful feel-good movie (i loved it), but i'm not sure whether this is actually a sustainable farming solution. afaik they make the farm profitable tourism, i.e. the guided tours, which wouldn't scale.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by datavirtue on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:55PM (#26827629)
When I think of sustainable farming I envision the explosion of production coming out of the Amish community in south eastern Ohio (the area I know) right now. Long green houses (high tunnels) bursting with crops, solar panels everywhere, and markets and stores established nearby to make and sell value added goods from that food and to sell it fresh. These people are literally getting rich and they barely use any fossil fuels and they are merely a blip on the food radar.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by Scoundreller on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:34PM (#26828349)
Probably depends on the exact practices. If they till a lot to work manure into the ground, that loosens the soil allowing it to blow away.

Others use tractors, buy fertilizers and other crop treatments like anyone else.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by datavirtue on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:46PM (#26827575)
Yeah, a nice goal would have been "100,000 new small farms in the first 100 days." The USDA should be promoting small speciality crop farms. The farmers markets are doing pretty good but if you shift policy to make factory vegetables reflect their true price it would increase profitablity of smaller farmers through more volume. You wouldn't need much to encourage a swell of speciality crop production farms. The impact from reduction to greenhouse gases would be immense if you had thousands of more local farms growing staples like broccoli, lettuce, spinach, green beans, peppers, tomatoes, and onions. "Speciality crops."
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by anonporridge on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:34PM (#26827016)
Self sustaining societies will always be out competed and subsumed by extractive ones.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by titzer on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:29PM (#26827446)
Extractive ones will always burn out in the long run as they will run out of resources to extract. They either learn to live in the waste they've produced, i.e. they become recyclers, or they simply die off. It's a question of how much collateral damage they do over their lifetime.

No matter how bad they screw up, in the very long run, Earth has a tendency to figure out how to recycle the raw materials. After all, Earth's ecosystems are the result of surviving cataclysm after cataclysm, from volcanism to asteroid strikes to climate change, to invasive species after invasive species. It's got a lot of experience dealing with giant debris piles left over from one shitstorm after another, be that a biological plague or the ash of an impact event.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by _carbyau_ on Thursday April 15, 2021 @08:09PM (#26827735)
Yeah, mother earth is fine.

Whether humanity will suffer a catastrophe of our own making is another question.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by javajosh on Thursday April 15, 2021 @08:42PM (#26827980)
"Mother earth is fine." I think this ignores the human status as a thinking animal, and the glaringly obvious responsibility we collectively share for keeping our biosphere in good condition. That is, that we keep the remarkable diversity of life intact, and do not pointlessly throw the most unique and precious part of our universe in a chipper to make more particle board furniture.

It is interesting that by incrementally converting the life-support system of our planet into dollar store trash, we could have similar impact on the biosphere as an ELE meteor impact! The tragedy is that, at least theoretically, this particular cause is avoidable. Or was. (Maybe science really is to blame? Wouldn't that be sad.)

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by _carbyau_ on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:27PM (#26828303)
While I think our views are similar, I clearly have a differing take on "Mother earth is fine."

To me, it implies that planet earth is as implacable as the rest of the universe. It doesn't have feelings. It doesn't care. And it will still be here for millennia yet.

This changes the conversation from:

"We're hurting mother earth."

to

"We're thinking animals and yet we're making a poor future for ourselves."

https://www.gocomics.com/joelpett/2009/12/13

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by titzer on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:43PM (#26828413)
I'm much more fatalistic for humans than either of you. We've been downright nasty to all other forms of life on this planet for millenia, and now we've stepped up from just being nasty to being positively ecocidal, ratcheting up the biodiversity loss with each new techno-monstrosity we create. We are 100% headed for the trash heap, IMHO.

You're right that we are "thinking animals", but we've got a global animus now that is obsessed money and growth. We're infected with a greed virus that I think is fatal to its host.

And the problem, as I see it, and alluded to in my OP, is that local incentives are all wrong now. Nearly every decision that is rewarded by the markets at a local level is bad in the long term. You can teach a small fraction of people so that they may become enlightened, but greed spreads faster, and is better rewarded. In a game-theoretic view of this, it will always pay to defect from those conserving and living sustainably, as you externalize the losses onto an unseen and uncared-for future, and spread that loss among everyone else. Moral hazard, everywhere. But now, with global civilization and industrialization, and instant communication, we've become more than a diseased troop of chimps headed for a brawl in the forest; we're an insanely overpowerful superorganism driven by unquenchable lust for exponential growth and armed with millions of years of energy reserves--even nuclear weapons! There's literally nowhere on Earth that we can't or won't go in search of resources or vacation potential.

As much of an atheist as I am, I can't help but feel a pang of spirituality about this, and that pang is, unfortunately, despair for the inhabitants of this green jewel that is being ravaged. And by inhabitants, I'm broad in including all living things, regardless if they are cute or have fangs and spit venom. All those funny animals, frogs, plants, fungi. They got fucked because money.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by javajosh on Thursday April 15, 2021 @10:12PM (#26828595)
I'm not sure it's about money, per se. Consider all the societies that had money and didn't get as "successful" as the current one, not anywhere close.

The culprit is the scientific method, and in particular it's ability to give people repeatable, inhuman action-at-a-distance that amplified moral hazard 10000-fold.

The longer the distance between extraction and consumption the more fucked your civilization is.

As horrible as that sounds, there is a beautiful symmetry: science gives hope to spread life beyond Earth, and yet it is also provides a real path to the destruction of Earth, our only home.

Clearly Nature thinks the gamble is worth it.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by _carbyau_ on Thursday April 15, 2021 @10:58PM (#26828901)
I see it as a conjunction of the two.

Science is a good tool for getting things done. The how.

Money is the motivation for getting them done. The why.

You've both got good points.

Scientific capability enables fucked because money.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by titzer on Friday April 16, 2021 @12:38PM (#26836067)
It's very curious to me, the connection between science, mind, learning, and economy. They are all optimization processes; narrowing the gap between the model of the world and the actual world, with science being a method of modeling and validating models, a method of learning. Minds are collections of learned models, and economy is the actualization of those models to accomplish the acquisition and use of resources.

I used the word "machine" before, and also the word "superorganism". I get this creepy feeling we're part of a cybernetic superorganism more akin to a slime mold, digesting the world not with funky stomach acids, but the humming sounds of a million bulldozers, pile-drivers, hammers breaking down and building up again. And now, in the 21st century, some kind of Star Trek computer sounds as the digitized stock market whirs away at a speed incomprehensible to these little pink-gray bundles of nerves prone to chemical stimulation.

All of those learning and optimization processes are harnessed, in bulk, towards the economy--harnessing the energy and mineral resources of this planet to create "wealth" for the value system of that machine. Even as just a software person, being light-years away from a bulldozer or a harvester, everything I have done inevitably feeds into making that machine more "efficient". I am rewarded, so my little life is improved. (I guess I shouldn't complain, the machine has made me relatively wealthy so far!?)

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by javajosh on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:25PM (#26840527)
Well, you and I are just two tiny specks of the traveling wavefront of "Life" that started some billions of years ago, and which includes everything currently living, on every timescale. (another way to think of it is that every individual is characterized by the 4D path of its center of mass, describing a world-line totally unique in the lifetime of the universe, and that these paths intersect and when you zoom out, speed up time, the network becomes invisible and you just see something like a time-lapse of slime mould growth. It's as beautiful an image as it is disturbing, for some.)

One element of the world which is clearly already a "cybernetic organism" is the everyday "Corporation" - it is an actual fusion of humans and machines to achieve a goal. Corps have many emergent properties, none of which have their root in any individual person or machine. And note that this was true pre-information revolution! (And note: corps ALSO have a center of mass! Although this usually isn't the most useful characterization, its accurate.)

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by _carbyau_ on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:06PM (#26883162)
This is an interesting take on it. But it gives me great concern.

When it comes to evolution, individual organisms are needed by the thousands.

If we have one superorganism subsuming the whole planet, then what if it turns out this isn't the ideal evolutionary path?

Fermi Paradox Great filter comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by _carbyau_ on Thursday April 15, 2021 @10:46PM (#26828816)
I agree with your thoughts as a general picture, except I think humans as a species will survive and not be a total wipeout.

But given how hard it is to predict the future, the details are : how much will it hurt?

How much of humanity will survive? How much biological diversity will we lose?

Aside, I don't think atheism/religion enables or precludes empathy for the living things in the world. 'Tis a sad future in many ways.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by cdash on Friday April 16, 2021 @02:19AM (#26830228)
We don't have any "responsbility" to anyone or anything but our own desires.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by stjohnswarts on Friday April 16, 2021 @11:44AM (#26835295)
You may not have loyalty, but if you're enjoying the fruits of society there is also responsibility to that society, otherwise one should probably extricate himself from society and see how long he makes it in the woods without it.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by cdash on Saturday April 17, 2021 @03:19PM (#26846714)
When I was referring to our own desires I was including human society.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by javajosh on Friday April 16, 2021 @12:11PM (#26835701)
The problem with psychological egoism is that it doesn't say anything.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by anonporridge on Friday April 16, 2021 @12:11AM (#26829360)
Mother earth will be fine only until the sun expands to the point that it boils off the oceans and completely sterilizes all life within the next billion years.

I guess the dead rock ball will still be fine.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by nine_k on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:56PM (#26827221)
Not always, but as long as the unsustainable extraction lasts. By definition, it has to run out of the stuff it's extracting.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by ed25519FUUU on Thursday April 15, 2021 @08:44PM (#26827993)
An observation I’ve made is that the strongest and most tangible criticism of modern farming practices comes from small/family farmers and homesteaders.

The two groups have almost no philosophy and practices in common. Different worlds.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by rufus_foreman on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:51PM (#26827192)
My grandparents were all farmers. They did it for money, not because they loved corn and the smell of pig shit.

As soon as they paid off the loans for the land, they rented the farms out to someone else to work and moved to town to get easier jobs.

I love the smell of capitalism in the morning. Smells like...better than pig shit.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by japanuspus on Friday April 16, 2021 @02:39AM (#26830384)
One argument in "Sapiens" [0], is that all of human history is a continuous repeat of this trove: We hunted the megafauna to extinction, converted the land to agriculture, and so on not because of evil, but because that for the individuals living at any given time this was the most beneficial course of action.

[0]: Sapiens, Yuval Noah Harari (2011)

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by Johnny555 on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:09PM (#26828165)
My dad came from a farming family (dad worked in construction, but 3 of his brothers and 2 sisters had farms). Over time, they all lost or gave up their farms because they couldn't compete against the corporate farms. Two of them continued to farm their own land after selling their farms, but they no longer lived there.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by devmunchies on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:31PM (#26828330)
> globalization

this is it right here. we're extracting all nutrients from a concentrated area and sending the yields far away. There's no replenishment.

Even the water shortages in California is not as simple as "farmers are using all the water". It's the demand for food far, far away.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by dagss on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:27PM (#26826943)
Makes me think of easter island. When our civilization perishes, money will seem as useful as those statues.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by a9h74j on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:36PM (#26827507)
Modified meme caption: Yea, we destroyed the environment, but for a brief moment, we sure mined a lot of Bitcoin.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by Melting_Harps on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:59AM (#26830912)
> Modified meme caption: Yea, we destroyed the environment, but for a brief moment, we sure mined a lot of Bitcoin.

It's hysterical that Bitcoin is the punching bag, because when economies that are prone to hyper inflation give way, its BTC that is used in many of those same countries. Who also, resort back to subsistence or local Ag. And guess what, destroying your land is kind of antithetical to the whole farming thing...

Anyhow, regenerative Ag can now be a massive boon if the infrastructure bill gets properly allotted; I'm skeptical but this could really come to define late millennials and gen Z to ensure that the problems they inheritance from the most wasteful generation (boomers) has some chance of being remediated prior to it being depleted and ensuring famine.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by a9h74j on Friday April 16, 2021 @04:37AM (#26831214)
I agree that Bitcoin is too easy a punching bag, but "we found a lot of hashes with leading zeros" didn't have the same brevity to it.

I am open to wondering if CO2 emissions are also too easy a punching bag. Crops can go way nonlinear when lacking mined water, lacking fertilizer, and lacking soil/biomes etc. I was not aware that the infrastructure bill favors regenerative Ag.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by Melting_Harps on Sunday April 18, 2021 @06:39PM (#26857187)
> I was not aware that the infrastructure bill favors regenerative Ag.

It's pretty vague, to be honest; but from what I've gathered many of its proponents are using it as a phase-in from the core of the New Green Deal, and is essentially a massive works project.

As a former farmer (Biodynamic) myself and a person that did Supply Chain I think that critical infrastructure doesn't just apply to the roads upon which freight travels on, also having a horrible factory farmed centralized food system is what created shortages during COVID and were revealed for all to see. There is no denying it that this model cannot function with just the slight amount of variance, 3PL continued to work and even improved during COVID in some industries, but none of that mattered in the end.

This incidentally led to crop losses due to a lack of labour, and many unnecessary deaths of workers like at meat packing plants had a shocking enough effect that made CSA memberships (shares in the Farm that grant you boxes of vegetables) the more viable option and revealed something that I knew from experience in the aforementioned industries (also culinary): the less food travels, the more savings can be passed on to the consumer, but also the higher a premium it has to it's targeted demographic.

The reason I highlight this is because critical infrastructure, as in the stuff that is of national security, after COVID has to include manufacturing of things like PPE and medical equipment as well as farming in a far more distributed manner--ventilators were just one of the examples of how far the US had fallen.

And the truth is the Department of Ag already has a lot of sound programs to help young, first time farmers: but a concerted effort to incentivize them with low to no interest loans for farming equipment and livestock for 10+ years would be a boon for so many wanting to get into farming and revitalize so many disenfranchised communities that were displaced in the 80s when mega pharmacorps forced their way that led to this big Ag system.

Simply removing a lot of subsidies to corn, soy farmers and using that to float the low interest loans would pay for itself in added revenue, moreover many farmers markets are now obligated to accept things like WIC and foodstamp programs to be accepted so we can readily pivot a low income community's diet in a decade, as seen in Detroit.

I'd include water/desalination as well, but to be honest I'm not sure that will be explored this go around, but may at a later time.

Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by insert_coin on Thursday April 15, 2021 @08:54PM (#26828056)
Money is very useful now, very very useful. Things do not need to last forever to have value.
Re:The U.S. corn belt has lost a third of its topsoil by wepple on Friday April 16, 2021 @06:27AM (#26832052)
This is wonderfully written, and really hit me in a way this topic hasn’t before.