News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by jonathanstrange on Thursday April 15, 2021 @04:55AM (#26817893)
This is a catastrophe and very disappointing.

Here is a little personal anecdote: I used to live in the center of Berlin Mitte when I was a student, had rented a Penthouse apartment for 450 Euro/mo incl. additional costs (but without water, gas, electricity). It was affordable. Then a Bavarian multimillionaire bought the house from the original owners. I was already abroad most of the time, so I didn't experience the loud works his people conducted to get old renters out. However, he did cut off my telephone cable, something the phone technician realized when I returned and was able to fix.

Later he threatened to build a balcony - "and this might take a long time" - unless I agree to pay a higher rent. The classic ugly move. I negotiated with him for a while and in the end the raise was not so bad. However, I realized that I have to get out anyway - he wouldn't stop until I'd have left, you cannot fight a landlord with evil intentions in the long run even if you're a member of renter protection like I was. So I left Berlin and never returned, not even for a visit. I never asked but would estimate the same apartment at around 1600 EUR/mo today, with an ever increasing tendency.

Now I live in another country, ten years have passed, and the same happens in the city I live in. Rents are rising continuously, I've already seen people photographing the houses in our street, several of them are being totally renovated, new apartments are always "luxury apartments" as if any local could afford these (it's a poor country, ca. 800 EUR average income), and an agent from Sotheby's Real Estate rang my doorbell recently to ask if I'm the owner of my apartment.

You cannot escape this trend unless you want to live jobless on the countryside. I'd buy an apartment like most of my colleagues if I had the money, but it would mean having liabilities for the next 20 years and I only have time-limited contracts in Academia.

It's frustrating to know there is a real risk I'll have to spend my later years in the most ugly suburbs and slums of an otherwise beautiful town, even though I have a rather decent salary in local terms, while most of these houses with unaffordable "luxury apartments" are bought by foreign investors. By the way, many of the new apartments are empty, apparently only serve as investments.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by DangerousPie on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:05AM (#26817970)
I think it's the opposite. The rent cap (at least in the way it was implemented) achieved nothing to solve the problems that exist in the Berlin rental market. It led to a huge decrease in rental supply. Yes, rent may have been cheap for the few people who managed to get a place, but it was a lottery with dozens of applicants for each flat. This mismatch of supply and demand is exactly the kind of thing that would be solved through pricing in normal markets.

And rents rising as a city becomes a more desirable place to live just makes perfect sense. If you are convinced that this will happen in your city maybe now would be a great time to buy a place?

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by qayxc on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:10AM (#26818476)
> If you are convinced that this will happen in your city maybe now would be a great time to buy a place?

Did you miss the part were they explained they can't do it because they only have a temporary assignment? This sounds a lot like "just be rich".

The reality is that a lot of people simply cannot afford to just "buy a place". According to some statistics [0], 40% of Americans (i.e. a "rich" country), are just one missed paycheck (or unexpected expenditure) away from homelessness. If you belong to the 60% that aren't and never experienced the situation, I understand how foreign the concept might seem to you.

[0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-of-americans-one-step-from-p...

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by DangerousPie on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:18AM (#26818542)
Yeah, that comment was admittedly a bit flippant. But I would say that OP can't expect to have the flexibility and low capital requirements of renting but get the benefits of stability and profiting from price increases that a property owner would have. There are sacrifices in terms of work and flexibility (and location) that people make because they want to buy their property.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by wrthfl on Thursday April 15, 2021 @08:26AM (#26819583)
You actually made me create a HN-Account to reply to this.

This is not true. The cap didn't apply to new flats. Which means that nobody wanted to invest and build new housing, but instead created artificial scarcity, there are a lot of empty buildings now because very few people can afford some of the abhorrent prices.

So yeah supply and demand totally worked. /s

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by goodpoint on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:08AM (#26818459)
> This mismatch of supply and demand is exactly the kind of thing that would be solved through pricing in normal markets.

The very opposite. The market optimizes for maximum profitability, not for maximum savings for renters or best quality of life.

There's a reason why governments have been building cheap housing across the last 100 years in most developed countries.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by DangerousPie on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:13AM (#26818512)
The market is how we find a compromise between tenants' desire for low rents and landlords' desire for high rents. I don't think you can say it optimizes for landlord profitability but it obviously also doesn't optimize for savings of renters. I agree that this is not perfect, but I think it's the fairest proxy we got. Attempts at regulating rents directly usually end up causing all sorts of unwanted side effects and make things worse for both tenants and landlords.

That said, I'm not opposed to the government building cheap housing. I think that's actually the best solution to an undersupply of housing.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by goodpoint on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:51AM (#26818796)
> I think it's the fairest proxy we got

You are simply rehashing the idea that free market is holy and magic. Instead, housing is inelastic. Also, apartments are non-fungible goods.

Furthermore, they have a ton of externalities. (e.g. access to transportation, shops, workplaces, schools)

All of this breaks every assumption around free market theory. Unsurprisingly, governments intervene heavily in the housing market almost in every developed country. The only exceptions lead to a combination of slumslords exploiting the poorest people and gated communities for the wealthy.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:35AM (#26819120)
>>You are simply rehashing the idea that free market is holy and magic. Instead, housing is inelastic.

Housing is not inelastic at all. Economists have studied the effects of laws reducing land-use rights, and have found they impose massive social costs, in the form of less housing construction, that leads to less affordable housing.

https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mac.20170388

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by goodpoint on Thursday April 15, 2021 @10:31AM (#26820971)
> less housing construction, that leads to less affordable housing

You mean that decreasing housing supply correlates with increasing price?

Because that's exactly what inelastic demand is: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/inelastic.asp

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:59PM (#26828509)
Demand might be inelastic, but supply and price are not.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by hawos on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:10AM (#26818478)
There are dozens of appicants for each flat anyway, with or without the cap.

Not everyone can just buy a place, if rents keep increasing only rich people will be able to afford living in the city, you need a lot of non-rich people to actually run the city though: cashiers, nurses, teachers, firefighters etc. It's not that easy.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by DangerousPie on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:21AM (#26818567)
I know the market isn't perfect, but in theory if lowly paid workers can't afford to live in the city anymore they'll start looking for jobs elsewhere, which will force their employers to raise wages.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by jonathanstrange on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:39AM (#26818699)
Sorry to be so blunt but that theory is really just false. There are no jobs elsewhere, the jobs are in the city. I'm also not a "lowly paid worker", I'm in the highest quartile of income in my country and work as a full-time researcher at university. Nevertheless, there is no cap on the rents in my area and they continuously increase even for my existing contract. They have increased sometimes by several hundred percent for new contracts in my area, so if we ever had to leave our current apartment, we'd be forced to spend more than 3/2 of our salaries on rent alone. Even relatively well-off families will have troubles getting affordable living space in the foreseeable future, thanks to AirBnB, hostels, and long-term investments into (right now mostly empty) luxury apartments. How the average family can do it in my country is mysterious to me, but I'd wager most of them only can because they have very old rent contracts which do not have in-built rent progression.

The market forces you refer to are fictitious. What happens in reality is that the middle class is dwindling, there is an ever increasing divide between land and house owners and mere renters, and at some point in the more distant future the whole system will break down.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by yladiz on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:01AM (#26818416)
> It led to a huge decrease in rental supply.

This was artificial though, as landlords were waiting to know the outcome of this ruling. It's not like the apartments just vanished from existence.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by DangerousPie on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:15AM (#26818523)
Sure, but I don't think it would have gone back to 100% if this law hadn't been overturned, since the law made it much more attractive to keep a property empty in order to sell it at some point.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by llampx on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:05AM (#26818899)
Empty apartments are more attractive for buyers but if your intention is to rent it anyway, it wouldn't have made a difference, as the Mietendeckel ensured you couldn't rent it for more than what the previous tenant was paying.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by radu_floricica on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:17AM (#26818073)
This reminds me of the dispute on liberalizing parking space prices. An uber driver last week was super against it, saying it's not fair. His main argument? He has a price protected one. Meanwhile I do the 10 minute parking dance every evening, while going past paid, reserved and unused parking spots. (Bucharest btw, and they'll likely stay this way)
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by varispeed on Thursday April 15, 2021 @07:16AM (#26818974)
For two years I had to drive for 1-3 hours after work each working day to find space, just because our local authority decided to make paid parking as a pilot on most streets in the area and mine was not included, so everyone tried to park on those limited free streets and I couldn't get a permit for pilot ones. The paid ones of course were mostly empty and that put enormous stress on the few free ones. Complete lack of imagination from people who planned this and residents were not consulted.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by userulluipeste on Thursday April 15, 2021 @09:23PM (#26828266)
This is something that irks me too. If you're an authority implementing paid parking, price it appropriately so that most of the potential clients would rather chose to park and pay instead of hunting for free parking in some other parts of the city. Once you have that parking lot full most of the time, only then you may juggle around with the price in order to bring it closer to a more desirable level.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by dna_polymerase on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:04AM (#26817965)
So, the bavarian investor who upgraded his property is the bad guy here? While you spend your time abroad, blocking an apartment in Berlin's city center? Sure, low rents from decades ago are nice, but there has to be an equilibrium. Houses depreciate and if the rent is too low there won't be any money left to pay for upkeep. Unless of course, the bavarian millionaire has to take a loss and pay for that out of his own pocket, because eat the rich.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by jonathanstrange on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:24AM (#26818133)
I was not blocking the apartment but travelling back and forth while doing my PhD, during one year. I lived there, and when I was away someone else was taking care of it. The Bavarian investor was definitely the bad guy, he illegally cut telephone cables and threatened me with making my life a misery in a way that was directly against German rent law. I had to consult with the lawyer from the rent protection association (Mieterschutzbund) who told me it might be better to keep an agreement with him since they only pursue lawsuits in more drastic cases - unfortunately such harassing is normal, although in the end illegal.

The rent was not too low, it was perfectly okay for the previous owners and I can assure you they did not lose money. They made enough money to pay a company full-time to take care of the building and relations to the renters. They merely earned normal amounts instead of seeking a 1000% return on their investment like the guy from Bavaria. There are greedy and fair house owners, it's as simple as that.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by truckerbill on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:16AM (#26818054)
The op would have sublet presumably at the previous lower rate.
Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by fy20 on Thursday April 15, 2021 @05:22AM (#26818128)
> Now I live in another country, ten years have passed, and the same happens in the city I live in.

The same is happening in my city (Baltics) too. We bought a new apartment 5 years ago in the city centre, at the time we paid €2250/m2 which was quite a lot. Now I'm seeing the standard price for new apartments being double that. The typical salary here is around €1000/mo[1], so these apartments are completely unaffordable to most people.

We were actually looking to upgrade (as we have a 1br apartment and now a kid), but we wouldn't be able to afford to buy a bigger apartment. Instead we bought land and are building a house on the outskirts of the city. We got lucky there too, as we completed the purchase right before COVID and apparently land prices have gone up a lot now.

You can still find barely affordable (usually older) apartments further out of the city, but if you want to live anywhere close to the centre you need to be earning a salary a good few multiples higher than the average.

[1] Thats for the country as a whole, but salaries vary a lot in different regions, so maybe for where I am it's higher.

Re:Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court by protontorpedo on Thursday April 15, 2021 @06:30AM (#26818640)
Renting a penthouse/dachgeschoss apartment in Mitte costs more like 2k nowadays.