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Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by rkangel on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:31PM (#26740777)
From "http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/" which is one up the chain:

> A little less contrast

WHY. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS. To give this person credit they have at least chosen some sensible values, rather than gone with something that was just about enough on an expensive graphic designer high-contrast monitor and then not tested it on anything else. Leaving the rest of us squinting to try and read text or manually overriding CSS.

Despite not being a complete idiot, they have still made the content harder to read. Contrast is good. It makes things easier to read. Why would you want less? Yes I know the art theory stuff about never using black because it doesn't appear naturally. You know what else doesn't appear naturally? TEXT. Black on white is a perfectly acceptable default, please don't change it for your body text without a really good reason.

(ranty style done in homage to the linked websites, but it felt good to get that out)

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by munchbunny on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:49PM (#26741018)
> Yes I know the art theory stuff about never using black because it doesn't appear naturally.

I think the underlying reasons for that are underappreciated.

When you pick #000000 for your text color, people won't see it as pure black anyway. Imperfections in your screen's backlighting aside, your screen reflects the ambient lighting, or, if you're outdoors and pointed the wrong direction on a sunny day, your screen reflects sunlight that is orders of magnitude brighter than the screen itself (measured in cd/m^2). #000000 never shows up as actual black either.

So if you're going to put black text on white background, just use #000000 on #ffffff. Nature doesn't need any more help to make text on screens hard to read.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by Matumio on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:08PM (#26741252)
If you want to go into the "pure black" discussion, I liked that article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24303042
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by GoblinSlayer on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:33PM (#26741538)
If you want to see natural pitch black, just go into a deep enough cave and see for yourself.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:57PM (#26741120)
On a good monitor, the color contrast between #ffffff and #000000 is far beyond the contrast possible in nature. No reflective material can reach those colors or that contrast.

That color contrast is perfect for a game, a movie or an image. But you don't want the feeling of something as bright as looking into the fucking sun mixed with the darkness of the deepest starless night. That's just painful, both in light mode and dark mode.

Just calibrate your monitor correctly, increase your contrast if your monitor can't even display Rec.709 sRGB, instead of compensating for your shitty monitor by making your website painful for anyone with a good monitor.

EDIT: this comment puts it very well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26741285

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dathinab on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:12PM (#26741293)
> If you use a color-calibrated

Over 99% of users don't, most phones are not high end and as such don't have such a screen.

> feeling of something as bright as looking into the fucking sun

Again, not a experience around 99% of internet users can follow, their devices don't get that bright, especially not on a per-pixel basis.

Also most people use devices in rooms with varying degrees of natural sunlight showing in.

And if whites are to bright then it's because my screen is wrongly setup for my eyes/usage. A perfect color calibrated screen is ironically often not a perfectly setup screen for normal usage.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:16PM (#26741344)
> And if whites are to bright then it's because my screen is wrongly setup for my eyes/usage. A perfect color calibrated screen is ironically often not a perfectly setup screen for normal usage.

There are very specific definitions for colors, and what they mean.

#000000 means 0.1 nits, #ffffff means 100 nits. That's standardized and specified.

The screen can't be wrong if it correctly matches the standard. If real-world content doesn't obey the standard, the content is wrong, not the standard.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dathinab on Thursday April 08, 2021 @04:32PM (#26743397)
> #000000 means 0.1 nits, #ffffff means 100 nits. That's standardized and specified.

Uhm, scree brightness control is a thing. Adaptive brightness is standard even on non high end phones. Same for desktops etc.

So a part of a standard which maps color to specific brightness levels is pretty much irrelevant outside of the unrealistic case of a perfect calibrated monitor in a perfect environment. Which does exist. But again is for most internet users unrealistic.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @05:47PM (#26744217)
> So a part of a standard which maps color to specific brightness levels is pretty much irrelevant outside of the unrealistic case of a perfect calibrated monitor in a perfect environment. Which does exist. But again is for most internet users unrealistic.

If you modify the brightness in software, you can also tonemap it properly and retain the contrast easily.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by jschwartzi on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:04PM (#26741204)
Yeah definitely. And also be sure to switch all your keys on your keyboard to a hardwood. I prefer mahogany for its bright clicks and depth of response versus the equivalent plastic keycaps.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:08PM (#26741244)
If you use these high contrast colors, you will break it for users on good displays. That means potential investors, people on iPhones, people on expensive samsung phones.

Those are the people you usually want as customers. And you're making your website painful for them. That's a decision you can make, but don't be surprised if you'll fail with that attitude.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by jschwartzi on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:24PM (#26741437)
Unless I'm writing a blog or something, in which case I'm not looking for customers and I really don't care if anyone reads it or not.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:27PM (#26741463)
Even in that case you should consider that your readers might have a diverse range of devices, and configuring a 1000:1 contrast ratio isn't exactly the greatest solution.

Keep colors and contrast restricted to the range possible by reflective materials (i.e. what can be printed on paper or ever be encountered in nature) and all the issues are immediately gone. You don't have to use grey-on-grey (which is super annoying). Just keep to the range of colors a newspaper will have, or a zebra will have.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by GoblinSlayer on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:42PM (#26741628)
Yep, http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ gets it right: uses your preferences. Doing anything else are various forms of failure.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:51PM (#26741715)
perfectmotherfuckingwebsite does it right: enough contrast that everyone can read it, not too much to be painful.

motherfuckingwebsite does it right, too: follow the preferences (which in my case is almost exactly the same as the perfectmotherfuckingwebsite)

The worst are websites with far too little or far too much contrast that don't even follow preferences. At work I've had to repeatedly go against designers wishes refusing to implement their design and saying: I'll implement you anything within of 4.5:1 to 10:1 contrast ratio. But I won't go below that (no, I can't make the text 10px tall in #c0c0c0 on #f0f0f0) nor above that.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by arthur2e5 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:17PM (#26741357)
Making sRGB 1000 nits is extremely bad colorimetry. sRGB is supposed to go with 80 nits in its original definition, and being an order of magnitude off indicates something very wrong with your system's concept of what "standard dynamic range" entails.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:19PM (#26741389)
My own monitor calibrates sRGB to 100 nits (thank god), but a lot of consumer displays (especially smartphones) are so badly color managed that they display sRGB at 600nits and more, with no option to properly change that.

Generally, media and text need very different contrast ratios and colorspaces, and text should never use the full contrast available.

But the big issue is that most content is using entirely unmanaged colors, not even correctly setting them to sRGB (or actually the color profile of whatever shitty 6-bit 100:1 contrast panel from 2004 they managed to find on the dump).

If that was actually used, we wouldn't have any of these issues and everything would be correctly tonemapped. But they don't, they set no profile, which in some software means "whatever the display supports" (although recently enough software enforces "probably sRGB at 1000:1 contrast 100nits max brightness" luckily).

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dapids on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:28PM (#26741475)
"Just calibrate your monitor". If only making every monitor calibrate perfectly was so simple. Sometimes you don't have permission or access to even calibrate said monitor. Your talking about nits like every monitor is able to control its nits output, which is certainly not true.

Sometimes, you just have a shitty monitor. There are entire communities dedicated to calibrating monitors as I'm sure you are aware, it's time consuming and can be expensive, it's not a solution, we have manufacturer ICC profiles for a reason.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:32PM (#26741526)
I'm not even talking about using a spyder and calibrating it properly, even just manually changing the settings with a printed reference card can be worth a lot (or even by color matching by eye against an iPhone, as those have great default colors). Or even just manually setting the dials until it looks right.

But the reality is that I can't use some websites because they chose to make my experience worse so users with badly produced and badly designed devices have a better experience. We're yet again at a situation where obeying the standard is punished.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dragonwriter on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:55PM (#26745229)
> On a good monitor, the color contrast between #ffffff and #000000 is far beyond the contrast possible in nature.

No, it is not.

> No reflective material can reach those colors or that contrast.

Even if that was true, nature includes light sources as well as reflective materials.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Friday April 09, 2021 @07:03AM (#26748950)
> Even if that was true, nature includes light sources as well as reflective materials.

Emissive light sources in nature (except for rare occurrences like lightning, certain jellyfish and cherenkov radiation) are all black body radiation.

That's very different from the colors and contrast ratios possible by modern OLED monitors. The best example would be the blue LEDs used in modern OLED panels, which when they were introduced had a strange unnerving blue glow because that color just doesn't exist in nature.

Additionally, the contrast ratios possible by modern OLED panels are also far beyond anything in nature, as in nature anything that is bright, be it reflective or emmissive, will as result also light up its surroundings and reduce contrast naturally.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by Veen on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:47PM (#26740991)
> WHY. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS

Because designers are taught that too much contrast causes eye strain. They're advised against putting pure black text on bright white backgrounds.

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/how-the-web-became-unreadable/

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dathinab on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:14PM (#26741317)
But to little contrast causes so much more eyestrain, and can't be fixed by changing your screens brightness.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:11PM (#26741920)
Too much contrast can't be fixed by changing your brightness either unless you like spending several hours calibrating it again after every single blogpost you read.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dathinab on Saturday April 10, 2021 @10:04AM (#26761560)
I have said it pretty often in this comment section, but the huge majority of internet users has no finely calibrated screens at all.

They also won't have screen where they are likely to feel anything has too much contrast.

IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Saturday April 10, 2021 @10:43AM (#26761827)
> IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality.

A website which has so much contrast that it strains the eye on any spec-compliant monitor or a cheap 1990s CRT is a failed product. Reducing the quality of monitors to compensate for shitty websites can't be the solution.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dathinab on Saturday April 10, 2021 @02:51PM (#26763966)
Black and white web pages had been pretty much the standard since well the invention of the internet...

Same for black and white text documents.

Or black and white shell promts.

And so on.

So it's pretty obviously for me what is detached from reality and what isn't.

EDIT: It's the color space which is broken I guess, white (on a website) should be neutral background white not eye hurting brightness and the color space should have some "whiter then (normal,neutral) white" colors. I.e. the normal white color should not have defaulted to maximal brightness.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Monday April 12, 2021 @09:51AM (#26779420)
> EDIT: It's the color space which is broken I guess, white (on a website) should be neutral background white not eye hurting brightness and the color space should have some "whiter then (normal,neutral) white" colors. I.e. the normal white color should not have defaulted to maximal brightness.

Sure, but that's already the standard.

The people who obsess over using #fff as default white just happen to be the ones whose monitors show #fff the way #ccc was supposed to be shown (and used to be shown, on CRTs)

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by Matumio on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:21PM (#26741404)
I never managed to read this article past its title. I always get distracted by the fact that, after one second, the text gets obscured behind a pop-up.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by enraged_camel on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#26741055)
I hate Youtube on dark mode for that reason: it's white text on black background and I struggle to read comments!
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by iamacyborg on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#26741068)
They're doing you a favour.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by wrycoder on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:29PM (#26741492)
Which leaves you seeing phantom lines when you look away from the screen.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by camgunz on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:39PM (#26740886)
A fundamental design principle is that full black is unnatural. It's like, point three on "I don't know anything about design, give me a quick list" articles. And it's pretty true, frankly. Making text a little more navy or gray makes a big difference. Sure people have eyesight issues and not everyone has a great monitor, but most people prefer it this way.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by not2b on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#26741067)
Slightly greyer is OK, but if you give up most the contrast and use a small font, a large fraction of the population will find your site hard to read. There are way too many low-contrast web sites out there.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dspillett on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:14PM (#26741319)
I have sometimes used slightly grey and used "full" black for small emphasis (when the bold version available for the font in use is a just too much or you want a level in between). On pages where other colours are used for highlighting things (links, call-outs, warnings, ...) it can also help them not look a bit more subtle than you want agaist the hard black.

You have to be very careful not to rely on it though: as you mention lighting and protection conditions or just plain bad monitors can kill the more subtle difference completely. And, more importantly, those with sight deficiencies might miss it even in ideal circumstances.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by camgunz on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:55PM (#26741093)
Yeah that's true. Cynically I think this problem will solve itself as millennials age.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by hinkley on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:49PM (#26741019)
Very true, however better has chosen #444 whereas #333 seems to work a bit more consistently.

One thing you should always consider during the requirements phase of a web application is whether your app is likely to be used projected on a conference room wall. Things like contrast and fonts make huge differences in such hostile settings, and available screen real estate is also considerably limited.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by camgunz on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:54PM (#26741073)
Great point yeah. I also think it should be easier to tell browsers to make text high contrast, design be damned. Fundamentally it's an accessibility issue.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by hinkley on Friday April 09, 2021 @01:57PM (#26753765)
Last time I was in this situation, the UX expert and I had the entire dev team stand at the back of a conference room and vote on which font was most legible. All but one agreed Verdana was the easiest. Not only that, but it was still more legible than our previous font at 1pt smaller text, which meant we could get more info onto the screen. Not tons more, but we were having to truncate text in some spots, and sometimes even one or two more letters is enough for people to get the gist without having to backseat drive the presenter. It's subtle but I was beginning to recognize this as an important waste of time and energy when we were dogfooding our app.

When people are already getting short with each other before you even get to the actual reason for the meeting, you know it's going to be a long day.

But corporate wanted our fonts to match their other product. I don't know if it was my imagination or not, but it felt like that act broke a couple people on the team, myself included.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by camgunz on Monday April 12, 2021 @03:15PM (#26783803)
Ooof that burns. Feels weird to have a UX expert but then ignore them? But of course, corporate knows best haha.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by UI_at_80x24 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:58PM (#26741139)
https://contrastrebellion.com/

More high-contrast options exist then Black foreground on a White background.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, I loathe grey on grey sites. Being visually impaired nothing makes me rage-quit your site quicker if my DarkReader extension can't unfuck a site.

I'm posting https://contrastrebellion.com/ so all the replies and followup conversations can see it too.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by reacharavindh on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:08PM (#26741245)
That is one awful website to read on mobile safari. The scroll bar is hijacked to make the text unreadable - how ironic!? May be some should make scrollhijackrebellion.com ;-)
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by yoz-y on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:17PM (#26741358)
Add teeny tiny text to it too. On a basic website i can at least pinch. With scroll jacking it’s all broken.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by iso1631 on Friday April 09, 2021 @06:22AM (#26748706)
Purple on black is hardly "contrast"

https://imgur.com/Q52ZxwS.png

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by codydh on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:03PM (#26741196)
The scrolljacking on this site makes it literally unusable on my device.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by sxp on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:00PM (#26741158)
From what I can tell, this is due to designers cargo culting low contrast UIs. Whenever I've asked designers for citations that grey-on-gray UIs are better than black/white or white/black, I haven't gotten any good responses beyond some subjective answers. It's considered "general knowledge" but I haven't found hard data supporting it.

There are good reasons to avoid bright white backgrounds in certain cases since it can be hard to read in dark environments as your eyes switch between the bright screen and dark world. But in this case, pure white on pure black is still the best option for contrast. And the correct solution is to dim the backlight of the display to reduce brightness.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by smiley1437 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:38PM (#26740867)
God I hate lowered contrast on sites, especially as I'm aging. Give me the crisp edges of black and white, if I want to lower the contrast I'll turn down my brightness settings.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kstenerud on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:05PM (#26741211)
This is one of my biggest pet peeves of "modern" websites. I've installed github.com/Fushko/font-contrast, and I've noticed myself clicking it on more and more in recent times.

You don't need a pure white background, but for gods sake PLEASE stop making the text light grey! Having to squint to read a website is headache-inducing.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by indigochill on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#26741065)
Also what's up with those side margins? A little margin is nice (HN's feel reasonable), but the margins on both PMFW and BMFW look like they follow the philosophy of maximizing scrolling and margins to cram a bunch of ads in the margins, only without the ads. One caveat might be that I'm viewing them on a desktop monitor and not on a cellphone.

(Edit: Okay, I should have read TFW. They mention the reason for the line width)

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by deergomoo on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:18PM (#26741371)
Apparently optimal reading width is approx. 65 characters wide.

There's definitely a sweet spot; I typically have my browser windows at 2/3 width on a 2560px wide monitor. 100% width lines are a chore to read honestly, there's definitely a higher cognitive load.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by aidenn0 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:41PM (#26740913)
If everyone could agree to not use black-on-white, we could set our monitor brightness to a sane value and have enough contrast to read. In order to read black on white text, I have to turn my backlight down to like 10%, and then turn it up to about 40% to watch a movie.

More contrast isn't always better, or you would read text by printing out foil stencils and aiming them directly at the sun to read.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by lelandbatey on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:54PM (#26741078)
Join the contrast rebellion and demand high-contrast text: https://contrastrebellion.com/
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kstenerud on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:11PM (#26741291)
OMG that website is so easy to read! It's a breath of fresh air!

What would be really cool is if web browsers offered a mode that forced a contrast minimum when viewing websites. This would benefit devs and users alike: Users would have a pushbutton way to make bad websites readable, and devs would have a push button to show what their site would look like to users who get annoyed enough to push that button.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by jdiez17 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:24PM (#26741431)
Except they hijack scrolling (I think their intention is to “snap” to various sections). On my device, that puts the viewport at some point between sections, and I cannot manually scroll to correct it. So I can’t read the content either. Well done there.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:20PM (#26742010)
I love that website. It has the perfect amount of contrast, not the harsh #000 on #fff half this comment section recommends.

https://i.k8r.eu/dw9JsA.png

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:54PM (#26741069)
> WHY. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS.

Do you like 400 nits of #ffffff right into your eyeballs? No? Me neither.

The alternative is absolute darkness with extremely bright text, which in turn makes it unreadable (if you have astigmatism as I do) and literally causes pain due to the high contrast.

Nothing in nature has such an extreme contrast.

The only reason anyone would ever use full contrast is if they have a shitty 6-bit monitor panel that doesn't even reach the contrast ratio of a shitty 1990's monitor. And they don't even have a proper color profile, so their computer thinks their monitor has all the contrast ratio in the world, and doesn't tonemap fuckall.

The only way to resolve this is if either everyone finally switches on a color managed workflow, or we outright ban the shitty panels where #000000 on #ffffff is necessary for readability instead of being just painful.

#ffffff is the color of looking directly into the sun and absolutely painful bright, #000000 is the color of the deepest, starless night. You need these colors for movies, for games, for images. But your text should never be the contrast between a starless night and looking directly into a star.

Increase the contrast of your monitor, calibrate your panel, but don't build a worse website to compensate for your shitty panel.

EDIT: this comment puts it very well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26741285

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by hoophoop on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:11PM (#26741286)
> #ffffff is the color of looking directly into the sun and absolutely painful bright, #000000 is the color of the deepest, starless night

No. There's no definition of what they map to.

That's why we need USERS to be able to scale the ranges of brightness and contrast.

My environment changes during the day. I want to be the one in control of my screen, not some random website.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:22PM (#26741420)
> I want to be the one in control of my screen, not some random website.

That's not really an option, though. You'd have to separate text and media from the website, split it apart, and configure it separately, as most websites just have everything without any color management.

If these shitty websites with full contrast would at least set a colorspace for their images, so I could take the color profile of a cheap 2004 LCD as default for unmanaged media and text, I'd at least avoid the painful situation.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by u801e on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:01PM (#26741178)
> Nothing in nature has such an extreme contrast.

What about black text on white pages in an actual hardback book? But since you referred to nature, what about zebras?

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:11PM (#26741283)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Colorspa...

The not-triangular shape labeled "2200 matte paper" are all colors representable by reflective materials.

Colors outside of that range can only ever be produced by emissive materials, such as fire, stars, or your monitor.

All the colors your website uses should be from the range of reflective colors, as those are the ones seen in nature, and the ones your eyes are adapted to see.

The same applies also to black/white contrasts. Even vantablack next to a white sheet of paper (which would already be massively higher than any contrast in nature) still has a much lower contrast ratio than your monitor has.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by ath92 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:07PM (#26741239)
Neither zebras nor white pages in a hardback book emit light, they only reflect it.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by jmondi on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:06PM (#26741219)
What books are you reading that have pure white pages with pure black text on them? At best they are eggshell or an off-white page. Also... books are nature now?
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by yobert on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:05PM (#26741216)
Isn't the general theory about zebra stripes is they are designed to confuse and nauseate predators? :D (Poking fun, with love)
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by _jal on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:14PM (#26741313)
This is a case study in why I override display on so many websites.

> don't build a worse website to compensate for your shitty panel

Never change.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by stan_rogers on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:30PM (#26741516)
If white on your monitor is brighter than a "bright white" sheet of paper viewed under the same lighting - or normal lighting if, for some reason, you've decided to work in the dark - you're doing it wrong.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:34PM (#26741547)
Pure white on my monitor can't be created by CSS anyway, thank god, that'd be a full 1014 nits and actually is painful to look at.

But this is a general issue - you want to be able to represent extremely high contrast, far beyond the brightness of a sheet of paper in photos, movies, games, etc. But you want a significantly lower contrast for text. Sadly, websites mix both and offer no way to configure them separately.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by GoblinSlayer on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:29PM (#26741487)
> Do you like 400 nits of #ffffff right into your eyeballs?

If you don't like what your display does, tweak its settings to do what you like.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:37PM (#26741579)
I like what my display does: it displays colors perfectly accurately, and I've got 3 monitors, all color profiled, and all with perfectly matching colors as result.

Colors are standardized and have a very specific meaning.

I just dislike the colors these website authors have chosen, often without knowing what they're choosing, as their monitors often distort the colors and show something wrong.

None of this can be solved until we've got widespread color managed workflows and tonemapping on the web.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by GoblinSlayer on Thursday April 08, 2021 @03:08PM (#26742514)
Then you like 400 nits of #ffffff right into your eyeballs?
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by kuschku on Thursday April 08, 2021 @03:24PM (#26742671)
I like the brightest parts of movies, games and images being 400 nits, yes.

And I don't like reconfiguring my display for every different kind of content.

What I don't like is websites using #ffffff

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by cactus2093 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:11PM (#26741285)
Obviously too little contrast is bad and makes text hard to read, but it doesn't at all follow that MORE CONTRAST is always better. In fact it's pretty clear that too much contrast (which is equivalent to too much brightness, since there's a floor on how black the dark parts can get) can be a negative thing, that's why we don't all leave our displays at maximal brightness in all lighting conditions.

Another commenter mentioned that all text should just be black on white and people can dim their screens as necessary. It's somewhat a matter of personal preference, but this seems like a bad solution to me. Most people are not looking at exclusively text when browsing the web, there are lots of pictures and videos as well. Users shouldn't have to be constantly fiddling with screen brightness. In photos and videos, contrast is often used for dramatic effect, where you want some parts to get brighter than others. If the text is too high contrast so you have to dim your screen further to view it comfortably, then the photos or videos you see alongside the text won't be as impactful and enjoyable. Why should every piece of text you read be as dramatic as the most intense rays of sunlight or something in a photo or movie?

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by mrweasel on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#26740844)
Completely agree, the weird dark grey text makes the whole site look foggy. It actually one off the most annoying colours I’ve seen used for text.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by ocdtrekkie on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:39PM (#26740887)
If you're within 10-15% or so of white or black, I am fine with the "slightly grey" look, assuming I don't have an AMOLED screen, where your dark grey is just wasting my phone battery.

I really only get annoyed with the "less contrast" meme when it's something like a Google website where the UI disappears if your monitor's contrast settings weren't tuned professionally. (I used to have to adjust my monitor settings around making the UI elements on Google+ visible.)

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by lucideer on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:00PM (#26741164)
> WHY. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS. To give this person credit they have at least chosen some sensible values,

Dunno what the science says, but I really hate #000 on #fff, or vice-versa.

Yes, a lot of websites now go to the opposite extreme, but the reaction should simply be: so DON'T GO TO EXTREMES! Neither too much nor too little contrast are good.

And since you've pointed out they do go for sensible values here, why the outraged all caps???

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by zozbot234 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:28PM (#26741483)
> Contrast is good. It makes things easier to read. Why would you want less?

One sensible reason for this is that it allows using higher contrast, or different hues w/ similar contrast, as a kind of emphasis that naturally stands out from the surrounding text. Same reasons why most terminal emulators display text as light-gray-on-black, while keeping pure white as a highlight color.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by new_here on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:51PM (#26741039)
Lowering the contrast of text helps people with dyslexia (between 7.5% - 17.5% of users) to read the content more easily: https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/text-customization/r11

High contrast text can appear blurred for them while reading.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by dorkwood on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:12PM (#26741299)
I personally find dark mode with too much contrast to be harder to read. I experience real discomfort otherwise, so I don't think it's as simple as "more contrast is always better".

I think it comes down to what you're used to, what your vision is like, and how sensitive your eyes are. Some prefer high contrast, some don't.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by neogodless on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:44PM (#26742260)
I was a little confused when I clicked through, but then I remembered I installed the Firefox add-on "Font Contrast" which has absolutely vital over the past several years, with so many web site designers who think `#666666` text looks good against a `#CCCCCC` background!
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by tarsinge on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:11PM (#26741288)
High contrast is harsh on the eyes. Black on white is very tiresome for me, and can become harder to read at the end of the day. I always set the background of my text editors to dark grey.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by coldtea on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:20PM (#26741396)
>WHY. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS.

Because too much contrast on a monitor means white on black, which on average (that is, 99% of people's setups) brightness levels settings strains the eyes and people actively dislike it.

Its not some book reflecting ambient light, but a monitor with a led shining white (blue-ish) light on your eyes...

>Contrast is good.

Water is good too. Too much water though, and you die: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by marzell on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:56PM (#26741108)
Maybe unexpected for you, but not everyone agrees that more contrast is always better. I specifically choose color schemes in application I use that have less contrast as that seems better for me. There is certainly a point where contrast is objectively too high, and increases in monitor contrast and the increased use of HDR monitors make this more of an issue these days.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by chronogram on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#26740850)
Because they write the website on a high res Macbook and prefer their amazing artistic talents over the ability for people with cheaper computers or poorer eyesight to read their art.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by RandallBrown on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:40PM (#26740897)
> WHY. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS.

Because too much contrast can be jarring and distracting, making it harder to read.

These kinds of things are subjective.

Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by RedShift1 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:51PM (#26741038)
Is there any research that proves this?
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by RandallBrown on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:02PM (#26741188)
My sample size of 1 is really all that's needed to answer the question of "Why do people do this?" That is assuming that I'm a person.
Re:Perfect Motherfucking Website by edoceo on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:50PM (#26741021)
Put #101010 on #f0f0f0