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Re:A woman who took on Google and won by paxys on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:17PM (#26733384)
"Tech workers have it great. What would a union even accomplish?"

Stuff like this is exactly what unions would accomplish if they became more standard in the industry. The Google union is a couple months old and is already successfully defending their members from violations of labor laws. How many others are there who are working in unsafe conditions and/or illegally fired for "security reasons" and have no one to speak out on their behalf?

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by jonas21 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:16PM (#26733901)
Wait, what exactly did the union accomplish here? From the article it sounds like:

1. They got a suspension for talking about unions overturned, but not her later firing over the Facebook post.

2. Google signed a document saying its employees "have the right to discuss wage rates, bonuses, and working conditions," which is just a restatement of U.S. law.

3. Nobody admitted any wrongdoing and there was no monetary compensation.

If that's what winning looks like, I hate to see what losing is.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by paxys on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:23PM (#26733961)
> Her suspension for talking about supporting a union was overturned, but not her later firing for the Facebook post.

Where does it say that? The article doesn't mention a firing at all.

> Nobody admitted any wrongdoing and there was no monetary compensation.

There usually is monetary compensation in settlements like this, they just don't disclose it.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by jonas21 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:33PM (#26734031)
> "The next day, I was at work, I got called into a conference room with all, for the most, the managers present. And they told me that my Facebook post was in violation of the non-disclosure agreement, and that I was a security risk and needed to hand over my badge and my laptop immediately, and be escorted off site."

I've never been fired before, but I'm pretty sure when they ask you for your badge and laptop and escort you out the door, you're being fired.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by paxys on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:38PM (#26734064)
This was the suspension, and is what triggered the union to file lawsuits on her behalf
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by kortilla on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:57PM (#26734189)
> There usually is monetary compensation in settlements like this, they just don't disclose it.

They do usually say “settled for an undisclosed sum”.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Macha on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:35PM (#26733570)
Although software engineers and systems administrators do have it great now, compared to others like the data center techs in this article, it is also worth planning for a time that it may not be so, especially if you expect to be in the industry for a long time yet.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by worik on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:24PM (#26733454)
And the article demonstrates not all tech workers have it great, aye?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ageek123 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:52PM (#26733710)
Why is the Alphabet Workers Union filing lawsuits on behalf of people who don't work for Alphabet (e.g. the woman in this article)?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by kortilla on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:02PM (#26733800)
Because it’s a political group, not a traditional union. Its members are more interested in control over the company and perceived injustices to others rather than problems experienced by the members.

Collective bargaining can be used to make demands about anything really. It doesn’t have to be working conditions for workers. They can even use their power to pressure Google into supporting particular political candidates, etc if they have enough power.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:25PM (#26733977)
That's one perspective, though you haven't attempted to demonstrate why politicals shouldn't be an aspect of unions.

Seems reasonable to me for unions to be involved in lobbying.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by istjohn on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:30AM (#26735379)
Right. We accept that corporations lobby constantly. Why shouldn't their employees have a voice, too?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by jariel on Thursday April 08, 2021 @04:43AM (#26736486)
Anyone should be able to lobby.

There's nothing overtly nefarious about lobbying.

Lobbying is 'telling government about something specific'. Usually in your own interests, but the interests of the people should interest the government.

The problem is the asymmetry of power and access.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by skratlo on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:10PM (#26733855)
Wow, just wow. Like, no one asked really but here you go
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Craighead on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:35PM (#26734044)
What is stated is absolutely true...
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:08PM (#26733833)
Contractors included, see here:

https://alphabetworkersunion.org/people/our-union/

We recognize our power as Alphabet workers—full-time employees, temporary employees, vendors, and contractors—comes from our solidarity with one another.[emphasis mine]

Contractors included.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by paxys on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:07PM (#26733829)
They cover full-time employees and contractors of Alphabet.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by haolez on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:42PM (#26733647)
Come work here in Brazil! We have more than 15,000 unions! We have a union for union workers (not even joking). It's great! We are now a very very rich country, the labor is valued and we are also a tech powerhouse!

Sarcasm aside, it's really disturbing to see amazing countries like the USA falling for the same illusions that have kept us poor since forever. What defeats bad bosses is the option for workers to simply walk away, be it because of competitors offering better conditions or because you don't really need the income in the short term.

If your are left wing inclined, I suggest that you lobby UBI instead of unions.

Be better than us.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by sp332 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:06PM (#26733825)
Wages rose faster in America back when we had stronger unions. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... And rich executives were taking a smaller fraction of the profit for themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_Sta...
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by paxys on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:03PM (#26733803)
You are right. That is why Somalia, with no legally recognized labor unions, is a global economic powerhouse, while shitty European countries like Germany, Finland, Denmark (where up to 2/3 of the workforce is in unions) are in the dirt.

Cherry picking can go both ways. National economies are complex, and what works in one country can fail in another. There is zero point in generalizing.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by haolez on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:05AM (#26737710)
Do you live in any of those countries?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by kortilla on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:09PM (#26733848)
Germany is shitty though when it comes to tech. The pay is garbage compared to US top companies so they lose out on the top global talent.

It’s possible that unions are great for average and below employees, but they appear to be a pretty sour deal for everyone used to big tech income in the US.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by smnrchrds on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:15PM (#26733891)
> _________ is shitty though when it comes to tech. The pay is garbage compared to US top companies so they lose out on the top global talent.

You can fill the blank with the name of literally any country on earth and the sentence will still be correct. Tech salaries in the US are a huge outlier. There is not a single other country on earth where ICs can earn remotely as much as they do in the US tech hubs. Even US top companies don't pay remotely as much in their non-US offices.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by paxys on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:13PM (#26733875)
Every country other than the US is shit when it comes to tech salaries. I doubt unions have anything to do with that either way.

If you use the same argument then how do they make the world's top luxury cars with "average and below" union workers?

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by spottedgiraffe on Thursday April 08, 2021 @03:01AM (#26735901)
My impression is that tech is one area where union membership is very low in Germany.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by triceratops on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:56PM (#26733746)
correlation != causation. I can give you examples of rich countries that have lots of unions. Would you say it's the unions that made them rich?

You should look elsewhere for reasons why Brazil is relatively poor today. I guarantee you unions have very little to do with it.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by erklik on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:05PM (#26733817)
> I can give you examples of rich countries that have lots of unions.

Just curious, who would that be? I am guessing some Scandinavian countries, maybe?

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by smnrchrds on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:10PM (#26733852)
See the table here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement_coverage

France, Austria, Belgium, Iceland, and Sweden all have above 90% collective bargaining coverage. Finland, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Australia, Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Germany are between 50% and 90%.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ipaddr on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:02PM (#26733798)
Imagine life without your unions. It could be worse. Brazil has many problems preventing it from taking over the globe. Union are not holding them back.

You have bigger companies vs many smaller companies. Unions and big companies go hand in hand.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:36PM (#26733587)
I think this discussion of unions for tech workers glosses over a fundamental truth. While a union may be good for some people, for many (I think most) technical experts at a place like Google it would easily be a net negative, so they don't want them.

A similar analogy is why "no-tipping" restaurants are so rare in the US (or why they go away so quickly when they are tried). While no-tipping may benefit some servers, your good and better servers can easily make more money with tipping, so they don't want it to go away. The same dynamic exists for software developers.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Retric on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:34PM (#26734040)
A great many people spent a great deal of time and effort making unions seem like a bad deal. However, the underlying truth is unions are till useful for Actors making millions of dollars on a movie let alone FAANG programmers.

The core misunderstanding is unions adjust to the conditions of the workers they represent. Collective bargaining is hated by upper management because it shifts more power to the workforce be that someone making minimum wage or millions. People think great healthcare when they should be thinking more worker friendly stock vesting schedules and other issues that impact highly compensated individuals.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by jariel on Thursday April 08, 2021 @04:49AM (#26736533)
Unions have no value for 'actors making millions'.

The union is basically irrelevant to them.

The various unions and guilds in film/tv production are there to protect the regular workers who operate in often very irregular and ad-hoc circumstances.

Also - acting is a hugely oversubscribed job, most actors don't do acting full time. There are 10 actors for every role. Even good one's.

Even just 'working actor' - let alone 'millions' - is a very lucky position.

'Famous' actors are not helped by the union, they have agents who manage their deals, much like athletes and their comp. is a function of totally different things.

'Athlete's Unions' are actually advantageous to them, because they can leverage power against owners, but in that case it's 'rich' vs. 'rich' entities fighting over surpluses, and nothing is gained or lost for the rest of us, it's not a helpful basis of comparison for working-class unions.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Retric on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:54PM (#26741083)
‘Famous’ actors making millions like Donald Trump joined the SAG because they thought it was a net benefit to them. One of the major benefits is protection from those vary same managers which have historically often acted in their own interest rather than their clients.

Another benefit that seems minor to multi millionaires but occasion really makes a huge difference in these people’s lives is a significant pension. It’s unfortunately common for very rich actors to end up broke at some point making the security of knowing you’re never going to be poor even if they don’t stay rich a huge deal. That’s something managers can’t negotiate on a film by film basis and it’s an example where minimizing downsides becomes more valuable than maximizing total compensation.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by onethought on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:48PM (#26733687)
Or you could just increase minimum wage (unions help with that!) and get rid of tipping culture. Because fucking with peoples livelihood because your muffin took a bit long to come out is insane.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:07PM (#26733827)
I mean, this seems to completely miss my point. Good servers make much, much more than minimum wage.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by whoisburbansky on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:28PM (#26733990)
Most places in the world with reasonable minimum wages /actually/ use tipping as a way to reward good service, as opposed to an additional, morally mandated tax. Under a higher minimum wage, good servers would still make plenty if their service was truly worth compensating extra for, wouldn’t they?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:20PM (#26733937)
CAN make more. Not so many of them actually do.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by istjohn on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:39AM (#26735426)
Are you speaking from actual experience? I was a server for several years, and virtually everyone made 1.5 to 2 times more than minimum wage from tips. A few made triple minimum wage. The employees that were not tipped such as hosts made half what their tipped counterparts took home. Tipping is GREAT for workers in my experience.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by pmiller2 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:51AM (#26735849)
Oh, wow, so some people actually made a living wage. Yeah, that sounds great.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by istjohn on Thursday April 08, 2021 @05:03PM (#26743723)
Is that sarcasm? The alternative to tipping is not servers at Olive Garden getting paid $20/hr in straight wages. If people want to advocate for servers and bartenders, they should make sure that what they are pushing for will actually make food service workers better off. Serving isn't a great job, but it's far better than many other service sector jobs, and there are people who raise families waiting on tables.

It's incredibly frustrating to hear well-meaning but misinformed progressives argue for policies that would make the lives of people I worked with and respect much harder.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by pmiller2 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @10:50PM (#26746191)
No, it's not sarcasm. If a business can't afford to exist without abusing workers by paying below a living wage, that business's business model needs to be rethought. If that means people don't get unlimited breadsticks and have to pay a little more on the check, then that's what it means. And, I do mean "a little more": McDonalds workers in Denmark make at least $20/hour, get excellent benefits, and a Big Mac costs a whole $0.27 more than in the US.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mcdonalds-workers-denmark/

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Aunche on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:46PM (#26734123)
Most career waiters make more money from tips than wages. Customers are willing to pay more when they know exactly where their money is going.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:52PM (#26734159)
That's not most waiters.

Tipping sucks. The expectation that people work a full time job that does not also carry the expectation of being able to fund them existing and continuing to show up for work sucks too.

You've made the same, "but a few are doing great" argument made above.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Aunche on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:09PM (#26734292)
If a waiter makes less than minimum wage from tips, the restaurant has to make up the difference. In these situations, the restaurant's margins are so thin that they'd be receiving minimum wage anyways.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:14PM (#26734328)
That does not change the "some are doing great" argument.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Aunche on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:21PM (#26734379)
What do you mean? As I illustrated. There is a lot of potential upside with taking a tipped wage, but little downside.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:33PM (#26734445)
Pull the minimum up, and yes it improves. Without it? No.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by edgyquant on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:18AM (#26735320)
That’s shifting the goal posts. All waiters/waitresses make at least the minimum wage (by US law) and the better ones make way more.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:01AM (#26735554)
And yes, that is a SOME are doing well argument.

Most are not. Minimum wage = struggling overall.

Pointing to a minority making real bank as justification for current policy that leaves a majority struggling does not make sense.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by onethought on Thursday April 08, 2021 @10:00AM (#26738749)
Do US servers make more than Australian servers? Australia with a minimum wage of around $17 USD compared with US average of around $7.50 USD.

What is the average wage:tips ratio for US servers?

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:19PM (#26733932)
Maybe, just maybe, those of us working in great conditions can give more weight to the many more who clearly are not, lest we all see a reduction?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by tdeck on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @11:57PM (#26734954)
My understanding of the relevant research is that tipping is not strongly related to service quality. Most people tip the same everywhere, perhaps varying according to their mood or the type of establishment. It's certainly not a given that "good and better" servers are making more from tips.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Spooky23 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:55PM (#26734173)
Yeah... those fast casual restaurants and cafeterias are just unable to compete.

I’ve worked with big tech companies as a customer for a long time on significant projects. Over time, corporate politics is pretty brutal and without representation good people get into lousy situations, even for high performers. Google is no exception.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by gowld on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:42PM (#26733644)
Servers like tipping because big tippers are more than the enforced average of non-tippers. It's little to do with the people being tipped, and the people who make the most tips are the ones with the largest breasts and prettiest makeup and skin color, not the ones doing the best job waiting tables.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ipaddr on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:57PM (#26733766)
No union is perfect for an environment without management. Introduce management and a union is required.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by kortilla on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:04PM (#26733814)
What exactly is it you think makes a union “required”? I’ve not worked for a single union company in my tech career and everything appeared to be better at every company than pretty much any other industry that I know of.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by FpUser on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:11PM (#26733864)
>"everything appeared to be better at every company than pretty much any other industry that I know of."

Maybe if you held different position your point of view on a subject could be different.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by gretch on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:24PM (#26733973)
Yeah maybe. You can say “maybe” anything...

Are this person’s experiences not valid on their own somehow?