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Re:A woman who took on Google and won by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:36PM (#26733587)
I think this discussion of unions for tech workers glosses over a fundamental truth. While a union may be good for some people, for many (I think most) technical experts at a place like Google it would easily be a net negative, so they don't want them.

A similar analogy is why "no-tipping" restaurants are so rare in the US (or why they go away so quickly when they are tried). While no-tipping may benefit some servers, your good and better servers can easily make more money with tipping, so they don't want it to go away. The same dynamic exists for software developers.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Retric on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:34PM (#26734040)
A great many people spent a great deal of time and effort making unions seem like a bad deal. However, the underlying truth is unions are till useful for Actors making millions of dollars on a movie let alone FAANG programmers.

The core misunderstanding is unions adjust to the conditions of the workers they represent. Collective bargaining is hated by upper management because it shifts more power to the workforce be that someone making minimum wage or millions. People think great healthcare when they should be thinking more worker friendly stock vesting schedules and other issues that impact highly compensated individuals.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by jariel on Thursday April 08, 2021 @04:49AM (#26736533)
Unions have no value for 'actors making millions'.

The union is basically irrelevant to them.

The various unions and guilds in film/tv production are there to protect the regular workers who operate in often very irregular and ad-hoc circumstances.

Also - acting is a hugely oversubscribed job, most actors don't do acting full time. There are 10 actors for every role. Even good one's.

Even just 'working actor' - let alone 'millions' - is a very lucky position.

'Famous' actors are not helped by the union, they have agents who manage their deals, much like athletes and their comp. is a function of totally different things.

'Athlete's Unions' are actually advantageous to them, because they can leverage power against owners, but in that case it's 'rich' vs. 'rich' entities fighting over surpluses, and nothing is gained or lost for the rest of us, it's not a helpful basis of comparison for working-class unions.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Retric on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:54PM (#26741083)
‘Famous’ actors making millions like Donald Trump joined the SAG because they thought it was a net benefit to them. One of the major benefits is protection from those vary same managers which have historically often acted in their own interest rather than their clients.

Another benefit that seems minor to multi millionaires but occasion really makes a huge difference in these people’s lives is a significant pension. It’s unfortunately common for very rich actors to end up broke at some point making the security of knowing you’re never going to be poor even if they don’t stay rich a huge deal. That’s something managers can’t negotiate on a film by film basis and it’s an example where minimizing downsides becomes more valuable than maximizing total compensation.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by onethought on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:48PM (#26733687)
Or you could just increase minimum wage (unions help with that!) and get rid of tipping culture. Because fucking with peoples livelihood because your muffin took a bit long to come out is insane.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:07PM (#26733827)
I mean, this seems to completely miss my point. Good servers make much, much more than minimum wage.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by whoisburbansky on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:28PM (#26733990)
Most places in the world with reasonable minimum wages /actually/ use tipping as a way to reward good service, as opposed to an additional, morally mandated tax. Under a higher minimum wage, good servers would still make plenty if their service was truly worth compensating extra for, wouldn’t they?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:20PM (#26733937)
CAN make more. Not so many of them actually do.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by istjohn on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:39AM (#26735426)
Are you speaking from actual experience? I was a server for several years, and virtually everyone made 1.5 to 2 times more than minimum wage from tips. A few made triple minimum wage. The employees that were not tipped such as hosts made half what their tipped counterparts took home. Tipping is GREAT for workers in my experience.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by pmiller2 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:51AM (#26735849)
Oh, wow, so some people actually made a living wage. Yeah, that sounds great.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by istjohn on Thursday April 08, 2021 @05:03PM (#26743723)
Is that sarcasm? The alternative to tipping is not servers at Olive Garden getting paid $20/hr in straight wages. If people want to advocate for servers and bartenders, they should make sure that what they are pushing for will actually make food service workers better off. Serving isn't a great job, but it's far better than many other service sector jobs, and there are people who raise families waiting on tables.

It's incredibly frustrating to hear well-meaning but misinformed progressives argue for policies that would make the lives of people I worked with and respect much harder.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by pmiller2 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @10:50PM (#26746191)
No, it's not sarcasm. If a business can't afford to exist without abusing workers by paying below a living wage, that business's business model needs to be rethought. If that means people don't get unlimited breadsticks and have to pay a little more on the check, then that's what it means. And, I do mean "a little more": McDonalds workers in Denmark make at least $20/hour, get excellent benefits, and a Big Mac costs a whole $0.27 more than in the US.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mcdonalds-workers-denmark/

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Aunche on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:46PM (#26734123)
Most career waiters make more money from tips than wages. Customers are willing to pay more when they know exactly where their money is going.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:52PM (#26734159)
That's not most waiters.

Tipping sucks. The expectation that people work a full time job that does not also carry the expectation of being able to fund them existing and continuing to show up for work sucks too.

You've made the same, "but a few are doing great" argument made above.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Aunche on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:09PM (#26734292)
If a waiter makes less than minimum wage from tips, the restaurant has to make up the difference. In these situations, the restaurant's margins are so thin that they'd be receiving minimum wage anyways.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:14PM (#26734328)
That does not change the "some are doing great" argument.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Aunche on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:21PM (#26734379)
What do you mean? As I illustrated. There is a lot of potential upside with taking a tipped wage, but little downside.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:33PM (#26734445)
Pull the minimum up, and yes it improves. Without it? No.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by edgyquant on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:18AM (#26735320)
That’s shifting the goal posts. All waiters/waitresses make at least the minimum wage (by US law) and the better ones make way more.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:01AM (#26735554)
And yes, that is a SOME are doing well argument.

Most are not. Minimum wage = struggling overall.

Pointing to a minority making real bank as justification for current policy that leaves a majority struggling does not make sense.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by onethought on Thursday April 08, 2021 @10:00AM (#26738749)
Do US servers make more than Australian servers? Australia with a minimum wage of around $17 USD compared with US average of around $7.50 USD.

What is the average wage:tips ratio for US servers?

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ddingus on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:19PM (#26733932)
Maybe, just maybe, those of us working in great conditions can give more weight to the many more who clearly are not, lest we all see a reduction?
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by tdeck on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @11:57PM (#26734954)
My understanding of the relevant research is that tipping is not strongly related to service quality. Most people tip the same everywhere, perhaps varying according to their mood or the type of establishment. It's certainly not a given that "good and better" servers are making more from tips.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by Spooky23 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:55PM (#26734173)
Yeah... those fast casual restaurants and cafeterias are just unable to compete.

I’ve worked with big tech companies as a customer for a long time on significant projects. Over time, corporate politics is pretty brutal and without representation good people get into lousy situations, even for high performers. Google is no exception.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by gowld on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:42PM (#26733644)
Servers like tipping because big tippers are more than the enforced average of non-tippers. It's little to do with the people being tipped, and the people who make the most tips are the ones with the largest breasts and prettiest makeup and skin color, not the ones doing the best job waiting tables.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by ipaddr on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:57PM (#26733766)
No union is perfect for an environment without management. Introduce management and a union is required.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by kortilla on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:04PM (#26733814)
What exactly is it you think makes a union “required”? I’ve not worked for a single union company in my tech career and everything appeared to be better at every company than pretty much any other industry that I know of.
Re:A woman who took on Google and won by FpUser on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:11PM (#26733864)
>"everything appeared to be better at every company than pretty much any other industry that I know of."

Maybe if you held different position your point of view on a subject could be different.

Re:A woman who took on Google and won by gretch on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:24PM (#26733973)
Yeah maybe. You can say “maybe” anything...

Are this person’s experiences not valid on their own somehow?