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Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by Gravityloss on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:03AM (#26688444)
$50 per tonne? A coal plant produces about a tonne of CO2 for every MWh produced. Industrial electricity price might be $50 per MWh. So just paying for the carbon capture doubles your electricity price? $100 carbon capture charge would triple it. I can't see how this could be competitive.

We have an excellent carbon storage technology, it's called coal. And what's best, it's already there, underground, very safely, proven for millions of years! With no cost!

But we're still building new coal plants in many places. In some places, coal plants and steel factories have shut down, but it's often because industry has been offshored to a place that uses coal, or they're replaced with natural gas, only a somewhat better alternative.

So if leaving coal unused can't be made to work, then more inefficient and thus expensive methods of carbon avoidance likely can't either.

It's like working hard in the car wash for the whole day and then at the end of the day, spending all the money you just earned on having your car washed. It's a bad strategy - you would have spent a lot less time and effort if you had just washed your car yourself.

When the coal and natural gas plants have been shut down, then carbon capture might have a role.

Nice page about world coal usage: https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-information-overview

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by ehnto on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:03AM (#26689460)
It doesn't have to be competitive, it has to be regulated. If coal plants and CO2 emissions heavy processes aren't viable once the cost of sequestering the carbon is charged to the people emitting the carbon, then they should give way to processes that do (or be expensive enough that they're only used when necessary)

We can't solve the crisis by trying our best not to disturb the status quo, things are going to get shaken up a bit.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by Gravityloss on Sunday April 04, 2021 @04:23PM (#26692549)
Yes, though even now it's already possible to price CO2, yet somehow it doesn't factor in significantly in the price of goods produced with coal heavy electricity.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by tjoff on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:34AM (#26688631)
Double the price of coal sounds like an excellent thing!

Still very cheap. Promotes better sources of energy.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by javajosh on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:43AM (#26689314)
Indeed. The fact is that coal energy externalities have been ignored, artificially depressing the cost. Increasing the cost of a product to reflect those externalities is not a "blow to the industry", but rather the first time in history coal's price will reflect its externalities.

Nope, it's not a great time to be a coal-miner, but I hear Biden is trying to spend $4T on infrastructure so maybe some of those miners can buy a truck and form a road maintenance company instead!

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by ethbr0 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:18AM (#26689587)
The issues with coal mining are (a) it sucks and is dangerous, (b) therefore, people who do it, or whose families have done it, feel a lot of pride about it, (c) in the US, it's typically located in parts of states that don't have a lot of other employment (Wyoming, Illinois, Pennsylvania, West Virginia).

If you're serious about getting rid of coal in the US, it needs to start with "We appreciate your and your family's work over the years, and here's a truckload of money and economic development for your region so that you can lay down that burden."

Nobody reacts favorably to doing a hard job, every day, and then listening to someone tell them they're killing the planet.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by derefr on Sunday April 04, 2021 @11:48AM (#26690391)
Asbestos, AB somehow managed to get over their pride and stop fighting to continue mining asbestos. They’re still proud of the history and hard work that their town represents, but nobody there thinks it would be a better world if they were still digging asbestos out of the ground. (Heck, they finally renamed the town, too. It’s “Val-des-Sources” now.)

How the townsfolk there transitioned into that “doing it historically was good and necessary; but continuing to do it today would be dumb and bad” mindset might make for a good case-study. It’d certainly make for a more respectful and in-depth interview to do with them than just talking about the town’s name ;)

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by hannofcart on Sunday April 04, 2021 @08:17PM (#26694062)
Wasn't that brought on by a precipitous fall in demand. I doubt the asbestos miners had any choice in the matter.

In case of coal, there's still _some_ demand though it's on the decline.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by ethbr0 on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:52AM (#26698962)
I think of that as the climate crisis's Prisoner's Dilemma: it's individually advantageous for countries to ignore carbon caps.

If carbon-heavy power generation didn't also emit particulate pollution, we probably wouldn't have a chance in hell. But thankfully, renewables and electric vehicle are also a solution to the pollution problem in many high-population areas.

But afaik, this will be the first time we're asking entire countries to forgoe huge things in their immediate best interest, in pursuit of a greater good.

The Montreal Protocol didn't touch as huge of a part of the economy, and nuclear weapons are their own ball of thistles.

Removing lead from gasoline is probably the nearest analog, although with a much lower adoption burden.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by rbanffy on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:34AM (#26689715)
> (a) it sucks and is dangerous, (b) therefore, people who do it, or whose families have done it, feel a lot of pride about it

We really need to get rid of that “proud to kill myself to make my employer richer” trait.

> "We appreciate your and your family's work over the years, and here's a truckload of money and economic development for your region so that you can lay down that burden."

It’s only fair.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by gfodor on Sunday April 04, 2021 @11:07AM (#26690012)
They’re not proud because they’re killing themselves for their employer, they’re proud for killing themselves to feed their families, and perhaps because they are creating energy for others to use.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by rbanffy on Sunday April 04, 2021 @01:19PM (#26691207)
Nobody should have to choose between living a healthy life and feeding their family.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by ByteJockey on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:25PM (#26691689)
Ok, but people did.

And there's a certain amount of pride in that struggle.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by gfodor on Sunday April 04, 2021 @03:28PM (#26692145)
That is a strange way to say "perhaps I jumped to conclusions assuming people who are proud to be miners are foolish and ignorant for doing so"
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by javajosh on Sunday April 04, 2021 @01:16PM (#26691184)
>Nobody reacts favorably to doing a hard job, every day, and then listening to someone tell them they're killing the planet.

Sorry, but them's the breaks! Don't mean to sound harsh, but larger industries have died for worse reasons. What you do is what the wage earner did in the past: you suck it up and you move on because you have to provide for your family.

How many layers of industries have we invented and then rendered obsolete by subsequent industries? That number varies, in energy alone consider all the changes in distribution, extraction, etc. There has been a great deal of change in our understanding of the world since the invention of the coal industry, and it turns out coal is far more expensive than we realized.

I can see though why this seems synthetic, and why one would be motivated to challenge the assertion of fact. And it is true, that this argument is "synthetic" in the sense that it requires synthesizing many different observations spread over time and space using methods most of us aren't familiar with.

But a lot of us are swayed by the argument that using all this stored up energy in the ground has a side-effect of increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere in direct proportion to that consumption, and that this in turn is unwanted because CO2 is opaque to IR, and it will increase global temperature.

There is a "false debate" about whether or not the global temperature is actually increasing. If you look at the data, or even just the satellite photos of the arctic over time, you should be convinced that there is no debate, and its just a simple fact. (And while a conspiracy that has modified those images is technically a possibility, I think there's enough on-the-ground evidence to back it up. If those Richard Attenborough narrated programs are computer generated, then they have rendering technology beyond anything in Hollywood.)

This simple assertion of fact (and its acceptance by a strong majority) has real ramifications for us in the most personal of ways, because it is a matter of the quality of life for our kids and grand-kids.

The scale of the change we must make is going to be big, and I think the coal miners are going to get the least of it. We Americans are all going to have to consider our consumption more carefully, become more frugal, more European. Our cars will shrink, and become electric. Our physical store options will become more limited, but computer mediated options more diverse, more local, more self-sustaining.

Ideally this change comes naturally as small town kids get educated in major universities in big cities, and are introduced to what I can only describe as an "Enlightenment Era Ethos", one that is rational, reasonable, skeptical, experimental (and innovative), and which is clearly convinced of the reality and importance of Global Warming. Personally, I'm convinced on first principles. Clearly energy expenditure we make, moving a 4-ton SUV 15 miles each way for one person to go to the supermarket, where each item comes wrapped in its own weight of disposable, nested wrappers that serves more of a marketing purpose than a "safe food delivery" purpose."

America can and must go through what I call the "Contraction", where life here becomes more European, communal, local and frugal in terms of the daily details of your life. There will also be the further embrace of a national safety net, and not just for old people. My hope is that cultural shifts will help major chains like Starbucks contract, too, being eclipsed by local cafes with better products, made with greater care, at similar prices, and giving more people the experience of running a business and being the boss! Heck, I would like to see the return of the local ISP business, just a rack of computers in an office park with battery backups and a person who knows how to maintain it all and secure it.

So, don't be fooled. American coal workers have an outsized influence on national politics in those states because reasons. Their jobs aren't more sacred than anyone elses and if they feel "tied to the land" or their "way of life", I tell them: I'm sorry. We will all need to change if we're to keep our ecosystem healthy by averting a possibly unfixible tragedy.

I will volunteer right now and in a legally binding way, to tutor, for free, any coal miner who wants to learn how to code for a living. Reach out via profile. First come, first serve.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by khuey on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:11AM (#26689146)
> I can't see how this could be competitive.

It can't. Coal plants are dinosaurs that need to be shut down. Charging a carbon price is one way to make that happen faster.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by DennisP on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:02AM (#26689096)
It certainly makes no sense to capture CO2 from burning coal. But lots of industries are harder to decarbonize than electricity production. On top of that, we're past the point where just stopping emissions is enough; we have to draw CO2 levels back down.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by pfdietz on Sunday April 04, 2021 @12:10PM (#26690628)
Capturing CO2 from burned biomass (or waste) would provide a CO2-negative energy source. Not enough to run the world, but nice to have.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by namibj on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:58AM (#26689945)
Be aware that capturing exhaust CO2 of coal plants is about the cheapest source of CO2 for capturing, as you just need to pre-enrich the air in oxygen to get nearly-pure CO2 exhaust.

This expensive part is for capturing CO2 out of ambient air, where you only get like 0.04%.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by scsilver on Sunday April 04, 2021 @11:02AM (#26689978)
If coal plants produce 50$ in unaccounted externalities for every 1MWh they produce, is it fair to any of us to allow them not to have to pay for it's mitigation?
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by DesiLurker on Sunday April 04, 2021 @03:20PM (#26692080)
thats a good point, I'd argue given that CO2 concentration in atmosphere is a public bad (as in taking ability to sustain life out of 'common biosphere'), the cost to remove it on a per unit basis represents a good measure of externalized costs of unmitigated pollution (just co2, ignoring other pollutants for the moment).

this is doubly good because it provides a great incentive for the free market to minimize the costs of CO2 sequestration and hopefully will let us hit the knee of the optimization curve asap.

Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by 7952 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:31AM (#26688608)
Co2 pricing is not the only way though. You could give co2 capturing gas peakers a strike price in the same way as renewables. Or have a capacity market that is only open to carbon capturing energy sources.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by lenkite on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:30AM (#26689685)
How does one leverage this excellent carbon storage technology ? Plant fast-growing trees/crops, cut them upon maturity and bury them underground ?
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by thatcat on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:36AM (#26689730)
The closest thing we have to coal creation is biochar, so you plant the trees and then anaerobically pyrolyze the material and put it underground.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by headsupernova on Sunday April 04, 2021 @12:16PM (#26690687)
Simple - don't light it on fire.
Re:A CO2 capture solvent with exceptionally low total costs ... by 8note on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:23AM (#26689213)
The government will pay for it so they can keep a few coal workers in business and get their influencial votes