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Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by bb123 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:53PM (#26685464)
This is so incredibly sad, and I feel so helpless that this is slipping through our fingers. I fear I’ll never get a chance to see a coral reef in real life, and it looks almost certain that my children won’t. Is there anything we can do as individuals to help? I tried looking into conservation efforts but it seems like any amount of money we could hope to donate isn’t going to make a drop of difference to sea temperature change. Coral reefs aren’t like tigers or pandas, they’re just too delicate and complex to survive in any human made environment.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by PurpleFoxy on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:41PM (#26685726)
It’s too late to save the reefs. It isn’t too late the rest of the environment. Maybe the reef dying will be a wake up call for the world. But probably not.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by foobiter on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:08PM (#26685549)
tigers and pandas have such small natural habitats now that they’re effectively extinct in the wild; i’m not advocating for it, but it seems like nothing outside of large scale ecoterrorism can do anything fast enough to save our charismatic megafauna for anything other than morbid exhibition
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by lenkite on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:03PM (#26685847)
Actually, wild tiger population has doubled (in India) in the last 12 years.

https://www.businessinsider.in/science/environment/news/indi...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-49148174

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by jghn on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:52PM (#26686757)
This is one of those areas where percentage and actual count tell different stories. "doubled" vs "increased by about 1000" are very different stories when viewed in the context of "all the individuals of a species across the globe"
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by foobiter on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:20PM (#26685930)
it’s easy to double when numbers are under 5,000. Many ecologists are not as rosy as the indian government about this... 95% of their range is gone at this point and there’s not a lot of genetic diversity; a single disease can wipe out of the population. We’d need nearly 100,000 tigers to have the diversity to avoid this, and we’re not on track for that by a long shot.

https://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/april/tigers-genetic-div...

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by shrubby on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:23AM (#26687335)
https://imgur.com/a/Yy59VjX there is no land for wildlife populations to grow as we're using the land for the meat.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by ghiculescu on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:07PM (#26686129)
I think your timelines are a bit off, the article claims it’ll be gone in 2100. Your kids will be fine, regardless of your views on if it’s true or not.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by ghiculescu on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:35PM (#26686243)
btw if you want to see the reef in real life, it’s easy!

From any major airport in the world you can probably get to Brisbane for $1000 USD return. Then Brisbane to Cairns is around $100 AUD return. You could win back the cost of your flights at the Cairns Casino, the best (worst) attraction in town!

It’s far away from most people and it’s not cheap, but if you want to do it, spend the rest of this year saving up and do it when Australia opens its borders.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by greeneggs on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:47PM (#26686298)
You just have to be able to live with yourself, given that your trip (and presumably your lifestyle more generally) is destroying the very thing that you are visiting to admire. That's beyond me.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by TheRealSteel on Saturday April 03, 2021 @10:07PM (#26686369)
Civil aviation is 2% of global carbon emissions. It's also one of the hardest things to make clean. Flying is not something people should feel guilty about. We actually can, and probably should, keep civil aviation -- especially seeing as we need to implement carbon capture anyway.

Heating your house and eating meat contribute far more to your personal carbon footprint than flying, unless you fly much more than usual.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by adrianN on Sunday April 04, 2021 @01:18AM (#26687079)
Aviation makes up a small percentage because globally almost nobody can afford to fly. For me, taking a flight to Australia and back is a good way to double my carbon emissions for the year.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by drewzero1 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:00AM (#26687246)
It'd also be a good way to double your travel expenses for the year! (Well, it certainly would for me, at least.)
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by ghiculescu on Saturday April 03, 2021 @10:05PM (#26686363)
No it’s not. Most damage comes from cyclones.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by somishere on Sunday April 04, 2021 @04:51AM (#26687891)
Won't directly help, but you can contribute some time to help us better understand the current state of (some key reefs on) the GBR: greatreefcensus.org
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by astockwell on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:11PM (#26685561)
Vote.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by minimalist on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:24PM (#26685642)
This is a weak, low-effort responce. There is only so much that can be done by governmental mandate. People have become used to unsustainable lifestyles and it takes lifestyle changes at the individual level to shape our broader impact.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by yongjik on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:06PM (#26686580)
Ozone hole was fixed with regulation. Leaded gasoline was banned by regulation. Obviously government alone is not enough, but it can make a large step in the right direction.

Individual action is also important, but we will never solve the climate problem by ignoring what governments can/should do.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by brokensegue on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:27PM (#26686205)
government regulations influence how people live their lives. we incentivize buying homes so more people live in single family homes. if we tax something people do it less. tax carbon.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Ancalagon on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:15PM (#26685908)
Unfortunately this is the correct answer and I’m just now realizing it. Basically this means everyone going mostly or entirely vegetarian, restricting air travel, clean transport and energy and reduction of general production of crap (not only because the crap itself produces warming but also the shipping).
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Applejinx on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:40PM (#26686271)
No, it's really not, because individual choice is a relatively small proportion of the damage done by corporate entities and aggregations of people that serve other masters and don't have either the will or the ability to amend their own behavior.

By all means do all those things: I go in that direction myself. But also vote, because there are damages that will not be remedied short of large-scale wielding of power, and voting has some chance of directing the large-scale power that can remedy the institutional bad actors.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Ancalagon on Sunday April 04, 2021 @04:58AM (#26687921)
I guess I hit a nerve with my comment and it came off a little harsh. I mean those points I said in all sincerity because it’s been 40-50 years and the top-down approach really has not come about in the timeliness required to prevent the worst case scenarios. I don’t actually believe every one of the people of the world will change their standards of living to meet what I said, however... I don’t think this is a similar scenario to banning lead gas or aerosols harmful to ozone. These changes, if implemented by the government, would effect families’ dinner plates, the way they get around, how much and what they can buy and how they throw things away when they’re already used to things the way they are. It would severely limit their ability to travel freely. And we can say that new technologies will arise to take the place of those things that were lost but there will almost certainly be a gap between when we would need to lose access to those things like cheap transport and meat and when the new tech came out (high speed electric planes, lab grown meat, etc.). Basically any way you look at it, the average person NEEDS to have a lower standard of living for the foreseeable future to prevent the worst of climate change. This plan of action is not popular anywhere, so obviously it will never be implemented by any top-down approach.

Again just my thoughts. Didn’t mean to hit a nerve here.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by paulcole on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:26PM (#26686202)
I get downvoted everytime I say this, but if someone wants to make a difference:

1. Don’t eat meat.

2. Don’t get in airplanes.

3. Don’t drive a car.

4. Live in as small a house/apartment as you can.

5. Don’t have kids.

It turns out that when people ask, “But what can I do?” What they really mean is “What can I do that won’t really inconvenience me that much?”

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by samatman on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:45PM (#26686292)
So there are two problems with this.

One is that you're advocating for a hair-shirt, masochistic lifestyle stripped of all joy. I have no objection to you choosing a vow of poverty, and to pass on children, but don't try and sell it as inconvenience, what you're asking for is basically religious orders.

The second problem is, all you've done is reduced demand for those goods you've chosen not to consume. That makes them cheaper, so other people can afford more of them.

Congratulations, you've done... nothing! But you get to feel good (?) about it? Don't get me wrong, being a childless vegan with a bike and a tiny apartment can be a satisfying lifestyle, but doesn't it undermine the feeling of self-righteousness a little bit to know that all you've done is make it so one more suburban family with four kids can have tri-tip for dinner and fly to Cancun on holiday?

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by adrianN on Sunday April 04, 2021 @01:31AM (#26687129)
What you're proposing is of course good and mostly matches my lifestyle, but it's not a solution. If everybody did everything you say we could probably cut down our CO2 emissions by 70% or so. What do we do about the remaining 30%, except wait until the no-child policy eradicates humanity? We still need to get rid of all fossil fuels. Luckily we already have the technology to do so, and by building that out we can keep most of our lifestyle with far less emissions.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by barryhoodlum on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:19AM (#26687322)
The world doesn't work in this "bottom up" way. It's top down.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by paulcole on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:31AM (#26689693)
What do you think people should do?
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by hnick on Sunday April 04, 2021 @01:41AM (#26687158)
The Tragedy of the Commons is a rebuttal to this.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by paulcole on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:31AM (#26689695)
What do you think people should do?
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by hnick on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:38PM (#26693806)
It doesn't matter if someone uses resources responsibly if someone else comes along and then uses up what's left. People defer power to higher levels - government, companies, religion, culture, education, etc. Real change involves people but will have to be driven by one of these if you want entire populations of people to go along.

Climate change is unfortunate since it means getting many countries working together, and some may see a benefit in doing nothing.

As to what people can do? I'm not sure there is an answer. A technological solution would be great but isn't assured, voting is a problem in that you already need a lot of people thinking the same way, and leading a good lifestyle will assuage personal guilt but move the needle very little, so I think it's worthwhile but not a solution. I am not sure it will make a difference as you say when others will step in and consume what you left on the table.

My opinion is that nothing meaningful will happen until we see some obvious signs of distress and even then we'll be lucky if people scramble for a solution. We are starting to see problematic weather patterns, reef bleaching, and other evidence but since the problem is statistical in nature we always get people who say such events are not necessarily an indicator of a problem. Broader scientific literacy in the community to understand the fundamentals involved would take a generation and would have to be led from the top down meaning we get back to the same issue of bringing an entire country on board.

So I don't have an answer, but I don't think someone always needs an answer to point out something isn't working. Regulation would work within a country, but you need to get leadership on board and this is a global problem meaning one country isn't enough. The solution will have to align with selfish interests whether economic or actual survival. My hopes are on cheap green energy and maybe one of the cleaner variants of nuclear but that is more of a faith-based answer than anything. I hope it'll work out but don't know enough to be sure.

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Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by paulcole on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:40PM (#26686722)
I’m not trolling at all. This is how I live.

If you think a big house, a car, kids, flying for vacation, and a steak are what make life worth living, well then enjoy the end of the ride.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Igelau on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:45PM (#26685747)
We do. Let me know when it starts working.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by brighton36 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:30PM (#26685966)
I'm pretty sure that's what got us into this mess.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by labster on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:13PM (#26685898)
Should I vote for the party that thinks bottle recycling will save the world, or the party who thinks recycling is a socialist tax sham sent to oppress us? Those are my two choices.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:21PM (#26685933)
> Should I vote for the party that thinks bottle recycling will save the world, or the party who thinks recycling is a socialist tax sham sent to oppress us? Those are my two choices.

Where? Because I don’t know of a major party anywhere in the world that matches the first description.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Tiktaalik on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:23PM (#26686651)
This is most 'progressive' parties in first world countries.

Environmentalism, but only so long as it doesn't actually challenge the status quo of our society.

You have the Liberal Party of Canada, which brought in a carbon tax, great, but in order to justify to the public their expansion of oil sands export development. The notion that we would stop pumping oil out of the ground and burning it is unthinkable.

The even more progressive BC NDP also committed to exporting liquified natural gas to be burned in other countries, justifying it with promises of carbon tax increases.

Parties that were considering our climate crisis with due gravity would be doing everything they could to lower CO2 emissions, not taking one step forward, and one step back, and fiddling around the edges.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by gedy on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:01PM (#26686569)
You mean in China?
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Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by laverya on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:53PM (#26686330)
If everyone who cares about the environment doesn't have kids, this just ensures that the children of those who don't care about the environment will rule the world.

And political stances are remarkably heritable.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by globular-toast on Sunday April 04, 2021 @05:33AM (#26688049)
They rule the world now anyway.
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Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Grimm1 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:22PM (#26686190)
Until we find something capable of the level of creation and higher order thought we are, preferably without some of our negatives, then being anthropocentric is the only logical view to have.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by hnnameblah365 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:46AM (#26688685)
Until humans find something capable of the level of creation that humans deem higher order, then human logic is the only viable measurement?

This is a circular argument for anthropocentrism. It makes no attempt to define any of its qualifying characteristics from outside the human perspective.

To some, coral reefs, rainforests, and biodiversity are all a level of creation higher order than what humans can produce. Those things didn't need us to exist. In fact we ruin them. Not to mention other forms of created beauty humans haven't figured out how to ruin yet, such as sunsets or starry skies.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Igelau on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:48AM (#26689350)
> This is a circular argument for anthropocentrism. It makes no attempt to define any of its qualifying characteristics from outside the human perspective.

You won't be able to do this. Human minds will make human arguments. Even if you had a "higher order" perspective, human minds would only be able to comprehend it in their own terms. Definition? Perspective? These themselves are human notions.

> sunsets or starry skies

Happen thanks to our atmosphere, in a narrow wavelength of EM that precambrian critters found useful to eat each other with. Beauty is in the eye of the anthropocentric beholder.

The circularity is unavoidable. Like induction, you just have to be okay with it.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Grimm1 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @08:11AM (#26688827)
Sure, but I'd have to grant you anything other than the human perspective matters most first and you've already assumed it does where as I remain unconvinced. You made a pretty out there statement and I provided what is in all likely hood the common opinion.

I think the burden is on you here if you want people not to believe humans, of which I assume you and I are a part of, and our perspectives matter the most.

Until the coral reef learns to speak up and say, hey I'm putting my foot down. Humans and our choices determine it's continued existence. That alone makes our perspectives the most important if you want to continue having a coral reef, because it's our perspectives you'd need to be changing to keep it around.

We are for better or worse the arbiters around these parts.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by hnnameblah365 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @03:42PM (#26692244)
I agree that most people are unquestioning anthropocentrists and that itself is fine. I disagree that it's the responsibility of everything else on the planet to meet us at the table. It should be humanity's job to close the communication gap. Consider it an act of benevolence if you must.

I don't view it as a deficiency in other species' ability to communicate. It's a deficiency in our ability to listen. The reefs are speaking up, they're literally laying their lives on the line and the 'body' count is communication to humans that we should stop. It's not just coral, we are in the middle of a mass extinction event. One that just so happens to correlate with the exponential growth of humanity.

I think it's fair for people to question direct participation in exponential population growth. More people for more people's sake is not a solution, it's a problem. Of course this leads to a lot of really bad ideas about population control. Its a hard problem to solve, but I argue it's the same class of hardness as getting people to change their behavior in the middle of a mass extinction that doesn't impact them with anything but second order effects.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Grimm1 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @05:35PM (#26693051)
We've been in a population decline for a while. | https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-29/global....

Quick edit: That article is just to backup my comment about population decline, I don't really agree with the article's opinion to ramp up births.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by dragonwriter on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:14PM (#26693664)
That article is...wow.

> But as my colleague Robin Hanson has pointed out, dwindling populations create their own inexorable logic.

“have their own inexorable logic” seems to stand in for “cam be scaremongered via naive assumption that trends extend to infinity”.

> If the Japanese population shrinks by half, to 65 million or so, what’s to stop it from declining to 30 million? Or 20 million?

The same negative feedback pressure that is why the runaway growth that was the concern when people projected then-current trends forward ~50-60 years ago didn’t happen, either.

It’s much more plausible that global human population is approaching the horizontal asymptote of a logistic curve than that the slowing of global growth points to a shift to permanent population loss that would be an existential threat.

One obvious factor: strong non-family economic support systems are one of the strongest predictors of low natural population growth, but shrinking populations strain thlse systems, reducing their long-term viability. There are many more negative feedback mechanisms at work, too.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by hnnameblah365 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @06:56PM (#26693560)
I didn't know, thank you for sharing!

> If you think the world is overpopulated and has serious environmental problems, you might welcome this news.

It me

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by globular-toast on Sunday April 04, 2021 @05:21AM (#26688007)
Why? Who says creation and higher order thought is a good thing?
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by Grimm1 on Sunday April 04, 2021 @08:02AM (#26688781)
I do. Moral and ethical relativism does not protect you from having to stake a claim on a set of thoughts and values and standing by them.

You're more than welcome to think not of course, however this is definitely a more common thought than not. There's a larger shared set of values that people tend to hold even if it's not objective and I think you'd have to go to great lengths to prove me incorrect regarding those things being good to the majority, and even greater lengths that the opposite thought is good at all.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by xwdv on Saturday April 03, 2021 @10:46PM (#26686511)
We could perhaps make 3D scans of the reefs and create VR simulations to give people the sense of being there.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by cocoa19 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:05PM (#26686576)
I feel we're focusing on the wrong thing here. The primary reason we want healthy ecosystems is so they can sustain human life in the long term.

Personally I don't care if I ever see the reef, the Amazon or any other ecosystem. I'm pretty much interested in sustainable ecosystems to ensure human welfare.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by puppable on Saturday April 03, 2021 @10:54PM (#26686539)
In a certain way, thinking about this solution just makes me feel more ill...
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by refurb on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:37PM (#26685991)
Everything I read tells me that it’s too late. Even if we stop all CO2 production tomorrow there will be severe climate change due to the CO2 already released.

Seems like the best idea is to just enjoy the time we have left.

Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by porb121 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:43PM (#26686017)
That's quite simply not true. If we stopped all CO2 production tomorrow, we'd by well under 1.5 degrees of warming by 2100.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by refurb on Saturday April 03, 2021 @10:42PM (#26686494)
Not what I’ve read. It will slow things down and yes, would be under 1.5 degrees, but there will still be massive upheaval.
Re:Barrier Reef doomed as up to 99% of coral at risk, report... by SamPatt on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:17AM (#26695859)
"Enjoy the time we have left"

Please. What a joke.

Read the IPCC reports. They are projecting massive increases in the wealth and health of the whole world in all future emissions scenarios.

Some scenarios are just worse than others, but all are better than today.

The world has been improving for centuries. The idea that we need to "enjoy what time we have left" is absolutely insane. It's pseudo-science

Yes, human impacts on the environment cause problems. No, they aren't going to cause human extinction.

Read "Enlightenment Now" or "The Rational Optimist" for some perspective.