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Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:08PM (#26683782)
> no need for collision or comprehensive insurance, no financing interest, and nearly no depreciation

But you need to maintain it and have it inspected instead!

And you're also paying with your safety - ten years is a very long time in safety technology these days!

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sokoloff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:36PM (#26684026)
Maintenance beyond consumables (brakes, wipers, and tires) costs less than the difference in excise tax ($25 tax per $1000 of imputed value every year). All cars are inspected annually here.

At 4K miles per year (my average pre-COVID), if my risk is average, I’d expect to be in a fatal accident slightly less than once every 22K years. I’m OK without the latest driver aids at that low level of risk.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by theshrike79 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:11PM (#26684786)
4k miles per year isn't really anything, no point in getting anything more than the bare minimum.

According to most studies EVs are more eco-friendly after around 50-100k miles depending on each individual country's energy production profile.

At 4k miles per year you'd need to drive a brand new EV for over 12 years to break even CO2 wise.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by oblio on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:06PM (#26684285)
> I’m OK without the latest driver aids at that low level of risk.

Driver aid, ok. But passive safety?

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by ghaff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:16PM (#26684361)
I have a 10 year old vehicle. The current model has the basic advanced safety features (auto-braking, adaptive cruise control). But, no, I wouldn't get a new vehicle just to get those features. And this is coming from someone who does generally buy new cars.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sokoloff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:21PM (#26684398)
I expect I’d get more passive safety improvement from buying a 5000# 2011 car/SUV than a 3500# 2021 car/SUV, but if I move my risk from once every 22K (or even 20K) years to once every 25K or 30K years, it’s not clear that’s meaningfully different.

I’d probably be much better off to take less stress at work over car payments and/or lose 5 pounds on an all-risks basis.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by dzhiurgis on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:10PM (#26684776)
If you look at some people dedicated to testing EV’s - Tesla’s phantom braking has become huge driving factor away from their cars.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by r00fus on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:33PM (#26683995)
Surely you jest. What safety features on standard vehicles became indispensable in the past 10 years?

Note: things like collision avoidance and adaptive cruise are still luxury features and the OG poster wouldn’t have bought those anyway.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:27PM (#26684432)
Collision avoidance, speed limiting, adaptive speed limiting, adaptive headlights, lane keeping, blind-spot warning, ISO-FIX anchors, far stronger pillars, reversing cameras, lane exit monitors, SOS buttons and GPS reporting, far more air bags, door-cyclist collision warnings, seat-belt pre-tensioning, some have pre-collision suspension raising, etc, etc, etc.

I just went from a 2009 Land Rover to a 2020 Land Rover, so almost exactly 10 years, and one of the the main reasons I did it was safety features. They weren't standard on my model before and they are now. It's night and day.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by mattlondon on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:35PM (#26684939)
Also things like eCall (1) that became mandatory a couple of years ago without much fanfare: Fully automatic call/report to emergency services in a serious accident.

I think passive safety of modern cars has significantly improved too - they periodically up the ante on what it takes to get full scores in EuroNCAP for instance (2). A "top rating" car from 10 years ago would probably now be scarily-bad compared to the latest requirements that new models ace.

1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

2 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_NCAP

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by dzhiurgis on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:14PM (#26684804)
How do you people leave out ESC - it saved my life at least once or twice and it’s obvious how well they work.

What leaves me even more fumbled is how easily RWD Tesla’s spin out and crash with regen and snow. Take the gas pedal of and you’re going off roading. With normal car you’d struggle to even trigger ESC, let alone loose it.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by xedeon on Sunday April 04, 2021 @03:45AM (#26687627)
> What leaves me even more fumbled is how easily RWD Tesla’s spin out and crash with regen and snow.

Where did you get this info from? This is contrary from everything that I've heard from my local Tesla owners group. To the point that they don't even have to swap to snow tires during winter.

Some video examples:

[1] https://youtu.be/v_bfRm5hGN4?t=203

[2] https://youtu.be/v_bfRm5hGN4?t=272

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSokMC3fncs

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by dzhiurgis on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:16AM (#26696171)
Have a look this guy videos - collected from crashed Teslas - https://mobile.twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1359639313424...

There’s more than one and obviously we don’t know the state of tyres, but even with bald ones seems any car with ESC should handle such manoeuvre...

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sokoloff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:28PM (#26684897)
My 2005 Honda has ESC (Honda calls it VSA-Vehicle Stability Assist) so it’s probably similar to ABS in these conversations: widely present and not a last 10-years’ addition. I think Toyota had it on all passenger models since 2004.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by waiseristy on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:41PM (#26684535)
Don't forget TPMS! Probably one of the best safety-to-dollar-spent advancements in the last *13 years
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sokoloff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:18PM (#26684839)
That was federally mandated in fall of 2007.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by mrfusion on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:00PM (#26684684)
Interesting. What makes you say that?
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:01PM (#26684695)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_contro...

"271 fatalities and over eight hundred injuries in the United States with more injuries and fatalities occurring internationally" and would have been detected by a TPMS which costs a few dollars.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by alisonkisk on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:11PM (#26685568)
A few dollars times tens of millions of cars.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by throwawayboise on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:13PM (#26684795)
Blowing out an underinflated tire at high speed is probably a reasonably common cause of accidents.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by mrfusion on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:16PM (#26684821)
Does being under inflated increase the risk? I always figured it was debris or just worn out tires?
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sokoloff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:21PM (#26684854)
Underinflation adds to sidewall flexing which increases the heating and wear on the tire, which increases the risk. A few psi isn’t the issue, but seriously under-inflated tires are a safety issue for traction and blowout risks.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by hellbannedguy on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:51PM (#26685066)
I have heard horror stories about the mechanical/electrical reliability of Range Rovers.

The number one complain has been the powertrain. I know the automatic transmission is the weak spot in most vehicles, but I have heard of complete failures before 100k.

Could you give your evaluation of the vehicle?

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by cbozeman on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:00PM (#26685125)
There's an Australian expression, "If you want to go into the bush, take a Land Rover. If you want to get out of the bush, take a Land Cruiser."
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:16PM (#26685230)
Your special forces still use Land Rovers on operations!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australian_SOTG_patrol_Oc...

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by cbozeman on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:21PM (#26685268)
Negative, Ghost Rider. American spec ops prefer, and often use, Toyota Land Cruisers and HILUXs, for the very reason behind the Australian proverb! :)
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:24PM (#26685285)
> Negative, Ghost Rider

Australian, not American.

And I've literally seen it for myself, and I just also linked a photo of them doing it!

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by cbozeman on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:56PM (#26685475)
> Your special forces still use Land Rovers on operations!

I'm not Australian!

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:32PM (#26685680)
The context was their use in Australia though.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by chrisseaton on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:08PM (#26685172)
Not a Range Rover, sorry, a Defender.

I wouldn't own anything else to be honest. I've always driven one, and I also work professionally with a fleet of them and I don't have any problems at all. My last personal one never needed any work at all over ten years. Even if they were unreliable, if it's the kind of form factor you're after I don't think anything really challenges them on the market.

I think they're also a uniquely egalitarian vehicle - if you see someone driving a Land Rover it could be a farmer, a teenager in their first car, a parent doing the school run, an Army unit on exercise, a professional footballer, literally the Queen, or anything in between. You can drive the same car to the rubbish dump and to Royal Ascot and it looks completely appropriate in both cases! I don't think there's any other vehicle even remotely like that.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by lumost on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:18PM (#26684375)
Collision avoidance is now standard tech. Subaru has been making automatic breaking/adaptive cruise control a standard feature of all new model designs. Legacies MSRP at 22k, and the 18k impreza is due for a redesign in 2022. A quick google shows that the 2021 versa may be the cheapest car with automatic breaking at $16600 MSRP.

https://www.subaru.com/engineering/safety.html https://www.nissanusa.com/shopping-tools/build-price?models=...

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by brucehoult on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:55PM (#26685471)
My 2008 Outback 2.5XT has Eyesight adaptive cruise control including automatic breaking! Cost me US$6k a year ago with 55000 miles. Thirteen years old!
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by brucehoult on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:50PM (#26685445)
My 2008 Subaru Outback 2.5XT (JDM model) has camera-based adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning, lead vehicle start warning ("stop looking at your phone"), and pre-collision braking. Also AWD, 265 HP turbo engine. I bought it for NZ$10k (US$6000) in May last year, with 87000 km. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnuwXA6VcAAH9MJ.jpg
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by VBprogrammer on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:02PM (#26684250)
Time will tell but I've got my fingers crossed that in 15 years time any backstreet garage will exchange your battery on a car of that age for a cost proportionate to the fact that you could reasonably expect another 10 years of trouble free motoring. With luck with a 50% increase on its original capacity.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by theshrike79 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:05PM (#26684731)
They already do. A battery swap/refresh/replacement for a Leaf is 5-10k€ over here, depending on how bad shape the original is and whether you want a larger battery in there.

It's kinda sorta doable by yourself, but it's a HVDC circuit so you _really_ need to know what you're doing.

Actual brand-name shops are slowly able to replace individual failed cell packs instead of just swapping the whole battery.

The big problem is that batteries aren't really failing and because of that the manufacturers don't really have a process in place for replacements, each operation is a custom job.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by VBprogrammer on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:47AM (#26687427)
> Leaf is 5-10k€

Those are pretty wide error bars, last time I looked at used Leaf's they were selling for somewhere in that range. Admittedly first gen leafs with the 24KWh battery.