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Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by roywiggins on Thursday April 01, 2021 @02:57PM (#26664623)
We are already seeing the beginning of a new wave in Michigan.

> But she said the most significant increase in hospitalizations in the state is in people in their 50s, a group still at risk of becoming severely ill or dying from Covid-19. Younger people have driven the rapid increase in cases recently, she said, including high school students who participate in sports and have contracted the virus through those activities.

> “I do think this could be the beginning of a third surge,” Dr. Khaldun said, after an initial rush of cases in Michigan last March and April, followed by a surge in October and November. “I am concerned. But I also think there are things that we can do today that will start to turn that curve down.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/us/michigan-covid-outbrea...

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by seizethecheese on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:24PM (#26664922)
Sure, a new wave of cases, but will it translate to deaths? My understanding is that most deaths come from 20% of population and we have vaccinated over 30%.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by hammock on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:38PM (#26665079)
>most deaths come from 20% of population and we have vaccinated over 30%.

In the US, most (59%) deaths come from people aged 75+ according to CDC. People aged 75+ make up roughly 12% of the population.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by tyingq on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:02PM (#26665331)
"we have vaccinated over 30%"

Some places are at much lower percentages. "Fully vaccinated" varies from ~12% in Utah to ~24% in New Mexico. 17% overall for the US.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by flatline on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:12PM (#26665445)
New Mexico is currently at 48.4% of the eligible population with at least one dose, which recent research indicates is at least 80% effective. Research also indicates that the non-eligible population - children - are not as likely to spread or contract the disease. By mid-May I expect many more states to lift mask mandates, for venues to open at near 100% capacity, etc. People will still be dying from COVID, 80-90% effective still leaves a lot of people vulnerable. But that has not stopped us so far!
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by Baeocystin on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:38PM (#26665710)
The 80-90% numbers are for symptomatic Covid. The protection against hospitalization/death seems to be close to 100%, which is fantastic news.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by mapme on Thursday April 01, 2021 @11:07PM (#26668711)
CDC study from this week showed 90% effectiveness when doing proactive weekly testing regardless of if presenting symptoms. That is the best data I’ve seen as evidence it prevents even a symptomatic cases as a very high efficacy. Israel data claimed it was highly effective on a symptomatic but their methodology was off (for how they defined a symptomatic)

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm?s_cid=mm...

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by kmonsen on Thursday April 01, 2021 @06:16PM (#26666896)
Yeah, people are reading the effective number wrong. It is very close to 100% in protecting against hospitalization/death, which is what we really care about. If we could vaccinate 100% (perhaps at some time interval), this would be over.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by roywiggins on Thursday April 01, 2021 @07:12PM (#26667450)
I think it's likely that the real-world protection against death is actually lower than 100%- immune compromised people exist, and are liable to be comparatively poorly protected. And they're not part of the big efficacy trials.

Ideally you can protect them by suppressing the virus by herd immunity, which I think is actually a viable prospect with these vaccines.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by mapme on Thursday April 01, 2021 @11:15PM (#26668736)
Yes, this was seen in the Israel Pfizer data that death protection was around 93%. There are a number of public data points from Israel with sample sizes that dwarf anything done in trials. Shame it’s not mentioned more as it’s incredibly robust (positive) evidence
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by ghaff on Thursday April 01, 2021 @05:20PM (#26666193)
You can quibble about the date, but there's every reason to believe that as the US eases into summer, restrictions/mandates will largely fade away and it will be the Roaring 20s all over again. I fully expect that not everyone is going to be happy about that but it seems inevitable. International travel without restrictions will almost certainly take longer.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by azernik on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:58PM (#26665925)
Point being, we've focused vaccination on the most susceptible groups. Vaccinating even 15% of the total population means we've probably vaccinated ~90% of people aged 75+ (with that number being limited by health conditions that contraindicate vaccination).
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by Forbo on Thursday April 01, 2021 @11:50PM (#26668880)
Utah is saying they're at 22% fully vaccinated according to their site: https://coronavirus.utah.gov/vaccine
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by tyingq on Friday April 02, 2021 @12:25AM (#26669007)
Interesting. I got my number from google (google for coronavirus immunization stats), which says it gets its data from "ourworldindata"[1].

[1] https://github.com/owid/covid-19-data/blob/master/public/dat...

Google screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/OMu5EcY

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by chmod600 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:27PM (#26664955)
I don't see how that makes May 15 and beyond look any worse. A wave now means more organic immunity as well as more tranmission in the short term. But with so many vulnerable people already vaccinated, and so much organic immunity already, do you really think it will be a six-week-long wave?

Probably not. And in 6 weeks, that just means millions more will be vaccinated and younger people will have even more organic immunity.

In other words, there may be another surge, but it will probably be the last one, and probably over by May 15.

Again, non expert, don't cough on people, etc.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by mikeyouse on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:55PM (#26665261)
My friend's mom was just admitted to a hospital on the East side of Michigan with really, really bad Covid. Opening day for baseball is today, cases are surging like crazy and everyone is just pretending like it's over. I hope that things improve in 6 weeks, but I'm really pessimistic at the moment.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by sharken on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:48PM (#26665835)
Michigan is at 30% vaccinated with at least one dose according to https://data.lansingstatejournal.com/covid-19-vaccine-tracke...

So things are better than in most places and will continually get better.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by mikeyouse on Thursday April 01, 2021 @05:30PM (#26666335)
Yeah, it will eventually get better, but I have family who are physicians who are swamped again and friends with relatives in ERs and ICUs.. Hard to be too optimistic at the moment. NYTimes' latest concurs;

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/us/michigan-covid-outbrea...

> Michigan has more recent cases per capita than any other state, and has seen them soar in recent weeks, to more than 5,600 cases a day from about 1,000 on Feb. 21. The nation’s top five metro areas in recent cases per capita are all in Michigan: Jackson, Detroit, Flint, Lansing and Monroe.

...

> Health officials partly attributed the rapid rise in cases to the B.1.1.7 variant that was originally identified in Britain and is widespread in Michigan. But they have also observed a broader return to prepandemic life seen in a relaxing of mask wearing, social distancing and other strategies meant to slow the spread of the virus — many weeks before a substantial portion of the population is vaccinated. On Thursday, Michigan officials announced that they had identified their first case of the P.1 variant, which has spread widely in Brazil and has now been found in more than 20 U.S. states.

...

> Dr. Joneigh S. Khaldun, the state’s chief medical executive, said on Tuesday that 50 percent of state residents over 65 were fully vaccinated, a sign of progress that the most vulnerable population is closer to protection from Covid-19.

> But she said the most significant increase in hospitalizations in the state is in people in their 50s, a group still at risk of becoming severely ill or dying from Covid-19. Younger people have driven the rapid increase in cases recently, she said, including high school students who participate in sports and have contracted the virus through those activities.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by fredophile on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:02PM (#26665327)
More people getting covid means more chances of a mutation that makes it spread easier or is resistant to current vaccines. A surge now is a bad thing.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by hammock on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:07PM (#26665386)
What is the likelihood that any given mutation increases vs. decreases contagiousness or resistance?
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by pmiller2 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:36PM (#26665692)
It doesn’t matter how likely any individual mutation is to increase transmissibility or resistance. We won’t ever see the ones that decrease transmissibility or resistance, because they’ll be outcompeted by the Brand X virus, as well as any nastier mutants.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by hammock on Friday April 02, 2021 @11:22AM (#26672153)
Then why has it taken this long to see a global pandemic? Surely it must matter to some extent how likely any given mutation is to increase transmissibility or resistance.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by unilynx on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:30PM (#26665630)
That's probably random, but the mutations that increase contagiousness will be the ones surviving natural selection.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by hammock on Friday April 02, 2021 @11:26AM (#26672187)
I recall a general principle in virology that given a virus found in the wild, the more contagious it is, the less harm or death it causes. (If it killed every host it would have no long-term survivability)
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by roywiggins on Thursday April 01, 2021 @07:07PM (#26667400)
Most mutations probably just render the thing unable to replicate and it "dies," much the same way flipping a random bit is more likely to cause a program crash than do anything useful at all.

The relative rate doesn't matter, the absolute rate does (how often does it mutate at all and survive to infect another host).

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by titzer on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:07PM (#26665388)
> A surge now is a bad thing.

It's always been a bad thing and will continue to be a bad thing.

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by fredophile on Thursday April 01, 2021 @05:57PM (#26666654)
I'd argue that it's worse now. Where I live we have over 20% vaccinated right now and that number increases every day. This adds a bias for mutations that are vaccine resistant. A mutation that gives a slight disadvantage, but means the vaccine won't stop it, would have gone nowhere a year ago. Now that same mutation has a large population where it can easily outcompete the current virus.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by titzer on Thursday April 01, 2021 @08:04PM (#26667800)
That's a good point. I guess the worst situation would be almost herd immunity, with the majority being vaccinated but a minority of unvaccinated people constantly circulating the virus. The vaccinated population then represents verdant fields:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yybsSqcB7mE

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by pmiller2 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:37PM (#26665706)
It’s a little worse now in terms of selective pressures, but, at least hospitals aren’t overflowing currently.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by nradov on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:25PM (#26664934)
We don't really have enough contact tracing data to reliably conclude that that many younger people contracted the virus through participating in sports activities, as opposed to other activities. That seems like unscientific and irresponsible speculation.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by Godel_unicode on Thursday April 01, 2021 @03:27PM (#26664966)
Do you know that to be true, or is this speculation on your part? Just because you don't have the data doesn't mean it doesn't exist (unless you're saying that you're an epidemiologist in Michigan?)
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by krona on Thursday April 01, 2021 @04:51PM (#26665867)
The null hypothesis is that we don't know why/how they contracted the virus. Parent doesn't have to know it's true, or be an expert in anything.
Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by Godel_unicode on Friday April 02, 2021 @12:24AM (#26669002)
Their exact statement was: "We don't really have enough contact tracing data to reliably conclude"

Your argument, then, is that one can make a confident affirmative argument about the null hypothesis absent any evidence and be correct in so doing...?

Re:Pfizer 91% effective in updated data, protective against ... by roenxi on Thursday April 01, 2021 @06:41PM (#26667163)
Humans have been dealing with respiratory diseases since well before the dawn of recorded history. An article on nytimes.com proves nothing, but the null hypothesis (for a trained and educated medical professional) is not going to be "I dunno". The null hypothesis is "this will behave like [most similar virus I know about] and humans action will be causing spread in a manner following the epidemiological studies I have read".

COVID shouldn't be so much of a mystery any more, it has been 12 months of the most focused study the world medical profession has ever done. The only thing holding our knowledge back of the short term behaviour of COVID is ourselves at this point. We've had time to watch the disease play out multiple times.