News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by bnralt on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:08AM (#26621780)
It's worth looking at the discussion of the ship just three days ago on Hacker News[1]. A lot of what people thought was true (that it would be stuck there for weeks, being dismissive of using tugboats to pull it out) didn't pan out as expected. Just a reminder that we should always take what we read with a grain of salt, and that it's fine to reserve judgement and see what will actually happen after the initial media storm passes.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585282

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by sandworm101 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:17AM (#26621934)
Note that the egyptians were also planning for the "maybe weeks" scenerio. They were assembling the team for a litering operation (cranes etc) should the ship need to be partially unloaded. And a great many ships began to divert around africa, some of which may now be turning around. Certainly the shipping industry as a whole was headging against the "maybe weeks" option.

Not everyone on HN is a software nerd. More than a few here have worked in the shipping and logistics industries.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by freeflight on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:26AM (#26622102)
> Note that the egyptians were also planning for the "maybe weeks" scenerio.

Which is the sensible thing to do in their position: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by rini17 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:28AM (#26622135)
The canal has a limited capacity, so the backlog may go on for few weeks anyway.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by Clewza313 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:53AM (#26622599)
They've said they expect to clear it in 3-4 days.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by tomthe on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:31AM (#26622185)
To be fair: Maersk, biggest shipping company in the world also came to the conclusion that it will take longer and sent their ships the way around africa. It's always a gamble and every outcome has it's probabilities.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by rantwasp on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:43AM (#26622421)
that may still be the right choice given that now there is a huge backlog
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by EricE on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:01PM (#26623811)
Yes - just because they moved it that doesn’t mean the delays instantly clear.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by puddingnomeat on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:34AM (#26622235)
I think this is wrong.

Someone says "it COULD be stuck for weeks"

It gets unstuck earlier, fine. Doesn't invalidate the possibility.

The criticism is moot. If anyone had made bets, then I'd take both more seriously.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by ceejayoz on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:08AM (#26622852)
We see this all the time with political polling.

"Oh, Nate Silver said Trump only had a 30% chance of winning the election, but he did, so Nate Silver is an idiot!"

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by EricE on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:05PM (#26623865)
Nate Silver wasn’t just a little off - he was massively off outside of accepted norms for polling.

Multiple times no less.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by ceejayoz on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:09PM (#26623947)
No, he really wasn't. In 2016 he was one of the most optimistic of the major poll aggregators on Trump's chances; he had Trump at 30% when others had him at much lower odds.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-fivethirtyeight-gav...

> Our final forecast, issued early Tuesday evening, had Trump with a 29 percent chance of winning the Electoral College.1 By comparison, other models tracked by The New York Times put Trump’s odds at: 15 percent, 8 percent, 2 percent and less than 1 percent.

As for 2020:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-werent-great-...

> This year was definitely a little weird, given that the vote share margins were often fairly far off from the polls (including in some high-profile examples such as Wisconsin and Florida). But at the same time, a high percentage of states (likely 48 out of 50) were “called” correctly, as was the overall Electoral College and popular vote winner (Biden). And that’s usually how polls are judged: Did they identify the right winner?

(He also doesn't do the polling. He's an analyst, not a pollster.)

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by EricE on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:32PM (#26626220)
Lol - quoting himself to back up his performance?

How about linking to others and not him defending his performance. Of course he’s going to have excuses.

Live a little and maybe even pick sources that might not align politically with you too for an alternate POV. Prevents “surprises”. Because as someone with no love lost on either party the election results were not a surprise - you just have to look across all sources, not just the ones that tell you what you want to hear.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by ceejayoz on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:40PM (#26626319)
You're most welcome to "link to others" so we can discuss their specific critiques.

The "aggregate the polls" approach appears to have called 48/50 races correctly, so I'm fairly comfortable with it.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by politician on Monday March 29, 2021 @03:49PM (#26627282)
On the other hand, they hired the best salvage company in the world to remove the ship, that company ran massive calculations on the loads in the ship, and then they determined the application of forces needed to dislodge the boat.

I think the pendulum is swinging too far the other direction. "Look how easy it is. They just shook it loose" is the wrong lesson to take here, IMO.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by prophesi on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:29AM (#26622144)
Those comments were really helpful to me. HM did a great job at showing just how insanely large this ship is and why it will be difficult to get it unstuck. To a layman such as myself, a boat remaining stuck for almost an entire week sounds pretty absurd without that context.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by luxuryballs on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:18PM (#26626027)
To the tinfoil layman it’s funny, if I am not mistaken, that as soon as the President of Egypt ordered it to be unloaded they suddenly got it unstuck within the next 24 hours.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by polote on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:11AM (#26621835)
Well the biggest luck event in this case, is that there was a dredger pretty close to the ship. If you dont have a dredger and you need to ship one there we would have wait much more time
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by patentatt on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:12AM (#26621864)
Knowing nothing about it, would it be safe to assume that the Suez Canal would always have a dredger around? Or is that not how that works?
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by BurningFrog on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:19AM (#26621971)
I assume it's the same kind of luck that places gas stations near motorways.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by kparaju on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:34PM (#26624362)
Yeah, they have dredgers around for maintenance of the canal. This clip was from at least 6 months ago. https://youtu.be/P6st0k7KJmk

From the YouTube clip, it def seems like it's normal to see them when passing through the canal.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by BurningFrog on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:21AM (#26622005)
I think most people were reserving judgement.

But judgement reservers aren't prone to jump on message boards and shout "guess we'll have to wait and see" to the world.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by faefox on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:18AM (#26621957)
Yeah, but sitting around and reserving judgement wouldn't make for a very interesting comment section. :)
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by Agentlien on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:57AM (#26622660)
When this first got posted on HN I felt confident that I had absolutely no clue about the difficulties involved or how best to resolve the situation. I still stand by that assessment.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by pqb on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:26AM (#26622096)
> A lot of what people thought was true (that it would be stuck there for weeks, being dismissive of using tugboats to pull it out) didn't pan out as expected.

That was what many investors thought - see crude oil market in last days. There were two tribes - one saying week and second month(s) to solve the problem with ship. One selling, because of optimistic perspective and obviously other buying for opposite reason. In the result the price was standing still on the "same" level.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by keenreed on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:21AM (#26622002)
We got lucky. But several weeks was real scenario. If this boat would leak, ruptured, broke in half...
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by olalonde on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:27AM (#26622112)
This happens a lot on HN. Another recent example which turned out to be dead wrong about Coinbase[0].

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25459556

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by dentemple on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:18AM (#26621952)
The HN crowd tends to be heavily bearish on pretty much everything here, and there's an ironic lack of respect for experts in fields beyond those few HN favorite topics (e.g., low-level programming languages).

So, the difference in the expected outcome here doesn't surprise me.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by ethbr0 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:21AM (#26622012)
Tesla and SpaceX?
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by Robotbeat on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:41AM (#26622397)
HN tends to be pretty bearish on Tesla, although overall bullish on SpaceX.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by adrianmonk on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:08AM (#26622846)
I think a lot of that is because of this one quote and how the news (and the public) handled it (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/24/ever-given-a-massive-cargo-s...):

> "We can't exclude it might take weeks, depending on the situation," said Peter Berdowski, CEO of Dutch company Boskalis.

Of course that message got oversimplified as it spread. "Can't exclude" is a pretty important qualifier that suggests that it's an unlikely worst case.

But that nuance already was lost in the title of that same article: "Cargo ship blocking Suez Canal could take weeks to move". If you were to read only that title, you might think it is likely to take weeks.

TLDR: People thought it would take weeks because that's what they were hearing from other people.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by mrfusion on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:14AM (#26621891)
The media seems to exaggerate problems...
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by malwarebytess on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:23AM (#26622057)
Why do you say that? What was true is that if they couldn't get it out during the period surrounding king tide (which is now, peaking next high tide) then it would be a few weeks before conditions were as good.

That's a factual take on things.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by jeremymcanally on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:11AM (#26621828)
Also, if we’re being honest, a pack of software nerds on a website don’t have the deep expertise on every topic like they think they do (speaking as a software nerd on a website myself :)).

The stuff that gets posted here sometimes is...fascinating.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by devoutsalsa on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:21AM (#26622019)
As someone who watches a few too many YouTube videos on all things space, I consider myself to be a leading cosmologist, astrophysicist, and rocket scientist. I can speak w/ great confidence to anyone who knows nothing about these subjects.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by patcon on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:38AM (#26622318)
> I can speak w/ great confidence to anyone who knows nothing about these subjects.

heh sorry, can't tell how serious you're being. but it tickles my brain that there's someone who would also vibe with that byline: con artists :)

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by devoutsalsa on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:46AM (#26622464)
I'm being serious if you know nothing about space :)

Did you know my experimental observations of quantum gravity & string theory are as good, if not better, than the world's top scientists? If you print this comment on paper, I will have been published & peer reviewed, too!

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by lstamour on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:10AM (#26622899)
I see your tongue is still firmly in cheek here, as a brief Google Scholar search would reveal there are very few experiments available to observe quantum gravity and as far as I can tell, few studies of mathematics ever bother considering the experimental observations that other scientists or engineers would require. In fact, another researcher wrote the following article in 2017 in plain language: https://nautil.us/issue/45/power/what-quantum-gravity-needs-... therefore what you're saying is roughly true if not exactly true? ;-)

From that 2017 article:

> You already know we haven’t found anything yet—otherwise you’d have heard of it. But even null results are valuable guides for theory development. They teach us that some ideas—for example, that spacetime might be a regular lattice—are simply incompatible with observations.

I would suggest that publishing and peer review requires an audience, therefore ... err, by publishing this I am actually peer-reviewing your work?! Drat! That makes me 0/2 then!

To conclude my peer-review, I would like to see more details for reproduction, merely stating that you've performed experiments without providing the necessary observational data and steps to reproduce highlights the lack of originality in the paper you're proposing and therefore I would decline to publish. ;-)

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by craftinator on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:20AM (#26621979)
To be fair, there were a number of people chiming in who were claiming to be experienced in that area (ex Navy captains, people who did dredging ops, etc). One of the big things that changed the timeline was that the highest tide of the month occurred yesterday; if not, I imagine that ship would be stuck for another month!
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by gameswithgo on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:26AM (#26622106)
Being expert in adjacent domains is sometimes worse than being clueless. The ratio of actual to assumed expertise seems to get worse. Navy captains vs shipping boats, geologists vs climate scientists, programmers vs cpu design, etc etc. You can very easily not understand subtleties, comment on a thing, and then people listen to you.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by xxs on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:49AM (#26622532)
>programmers vs cpu design

You went a bit too far. I'd presume a lot of programmers do know CPU architecture well. While not common some of them to work on boring web platforms, some still do. Also most CPU architects would be decent programmers to begin with.

Programming has not changed all that much and it was not so long time ago that programmers routinely knew assembly and how many cycles (and bytes) each opcode took... Nowadays it might be regarded as an arcane art by most, of course.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by lstamour on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:29AM (#26623209)
> Programming has not changed all that much and it was not so long time ago that programmers routinely knew assembly and how many cycles (and bytes) each opcode took...

That statement partly highlights the problem. It assumes linear execution, when in reality, for most performance-critical products, out-of-order execution is the reality. For example: https://smist08.wordpress.com/2019/11/15/out-of-order-instru...

Most programmers on Apple platforms don't actually think about execution order -- because they don't have to -- but also because Apple is actively using Clang to discourage assembly and writing for specific CPU architectures. It makes Apple's job of releasing new silicon that much easier if they don't have to worry about breaking existing software custom written for a previous architecture.

And this still assumes a one-to-one relationship between the code you're writing and the computer it's running on or designed for. When you get to the cloud, or cloud functions, that breaks down even further. If using Heroku, for example, you don't even have to consider how to deploy your code and you can make it pretty far running a production service.

It's possible for closely related fields to still have very large differences. Consider drivers and cars: The more automation is introduced, the less we might need to know about what the automation is doing for us under the hood. Anti-Lock Breaking (ABS) in cars might be a simple example where folks know about it because there's a light on the dash and instructions in driver's ed. But if we didn't have those indicators, how often would anyone know about it and other such features? Some technologies remain undocumented until discovered later by experimentation, the VW diesels come to mind. Specific chip designers likely know more than your average programmer, just as specific car manufacturers likely know more about their products than drivers would.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by xxs on Monday March 29, 2021 @01:08PM (#26624945)
> It assumes linear execution, when in reality

This is quite a blatant assumption on its right own (and very far from the truth). The programming, itself, has not changed. But of course, modern hardware is not a von neumann machine. Writing lock-free datastructure is not that different programming, it requires a lot more attention and (possibly) experience but the basic premise is still the same.

Understanding memory topology/hierarchy & latency, concurrency, branch (mis)prediction, cache coherency should be a minimum for anyone who comments on CPU architecture. I did mention Assembly and without some knowledge on the target architecture it's rather pointless to comment on, either.

I encourage most developers to at least understand that memory is not actually 'random access', which makes derefernce not cheap - but accessing data placed together is next to free as it is likely to hit L1.

> discourage assembly and writing for specific CPU architecture

I found out that I could not reliably beat a standard compiler writing everyday Assembly around K6-2 years. Yet, still some inner loops can be carefully hand optimized. The point is that there are plenty of programmers who would be able to understand modern architecture and to me basic understanding is needed unless the job is just gluing code.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by gameswithgo on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:28AM (#26623198)
In all of those examples, its possible the person DOES have a good understanding of the adjacent domain. And in all examples, it is possible they will miss some subtleties, but people will give their opinions a lot of weight.

Just as an example I see a lot: branch prediction. Some programmers don't know about it at all. Many do know about it, but think that it still works in some form like "assume the branch will go the same way it did last time". Which is how it worked in the 1990s. Then it evolved, and then it evolved two more times. Today there is something like a neural network that learns how the branches will go. (And careful, im a programmer so I may be communicating some subtleties wrong there!)

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by xxs on Monday March 29, 2021 @01:11PM (#26624990)
>Today there is something like a neural network that learns how the branches will go.

More like history, where the call comes from. Oddly enough the price of branch misdirection has become lower as not the entire pipeline needs to be thrown away but also due to hyper threading taking the slack.

Flip note: with 'recent' developments of Spectre, one'd think branch prediction got into the lime light. Truth be told, though, not many would be able to write constant time 'fizz buzz' (can try it on your own, bonus points to having constant time int->string conversion)

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:23PM (#26624192)
And the aging of their experience matters. I mentioned upthread that I was trained as a merchant marine officer. However that was three decades ago and while a lot of my training will still apply, industry practices move on and a lot of the stuff I learned is long since outdated. A lot of times I start to type a reply to something relevant and have to smack myself into remembering that things are probably done differently in 2021 :-)
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by maxerickson on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:43AM (#26622416)
It took them a few days to dredge away meters of sand. Why would it take more than a few additional days to dredge away another couple meters of sand?

Of course each meter of depth is a little harder, but not that much harder.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by EricE on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:54AM (#26623703)
>Of course each meter of depth is a little harder, but not that much harder.

lol - cut and fill on a slope is not trivial. It’s more of an exponential function than a linear one for the amount of material removed the deeper you have to go down. They dodged a HUGE bullet with the highest tides happening this weekend. If they had gone beyond a Tuesday with the drop in tides each day as the moon got further away it would have been sketchy if they could have gotten ahead of the tide or not.

The timing of this couldn’t have been tighter. Thankfully they came out on the good side :)

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by maxerickson on Monday March 29, 2021 @12:03PM (#26623844)
The seasonal variation in the tides is like 20 centimeters. The draft of the ship is more than 10 meters at the bow.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by garaetjjte on Monday March 29, 2021 @04:17PM (#26627630)
Yeah, but on ship this size 400x60x0.2=4800 tons of difference! I'm somewhat exaggerating because ship hull isn't cuboid, but it is still likely equivalent to removing around hundred containers.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by maxerickson on Monday March 29, 2021 @06:49PM (#26629284)
Only a portion of it was grounded, not the full length of the ship.

Someone linked a BBC article stating that they shifted 27,000 cubic meters of sand, so there you go, they could likely remove a meter under the whole thing in a similar amount of time (probably longer to cover area instead of digging down, but that isn't what they would need to do).

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by EricE on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:19PM (#26626038)
Good thing we are talking normal monthly tidal variations (not seasonal) which vary by meters, not centimeters.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by maxerickson on Monday March 29, 2021 @02:39PM (#26626318)
Not in Suez though.

Yes, the high tide is a better opportunity to do it, the tides over the next couple of weeks are still within 20-30 cm. The worst day in the next 30 days is 60 cm below the highest.

But maybe the dredge only made a few centimeters of difference running for 5 days, who knows.

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by EricE on Monday March 29, 2021 @11:45AM (#26623532)
Yes - Mother Nature deserves the lions share of credit for extraditing the ship!
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by tomc1985 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:36AM (#26622280)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is real
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by debaserab2 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:23AM (#26622042)
Ever since I discovered n-gate.com HN comments read a little different than they used to...
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by hartator on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:30AM (#26622154)
This is some kind of weekly digest? I don't fully get it.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by ohgodplsno on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:51AM (#26622566)
It's a weekly digest that makes fun of how absolutely full of shit (and themselves) HN posters are.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by acqq on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:50AM (#26622540)
Never mind!

Here

https://www.patreon.com/ngate

There's an offer of:

Limited Series A (5 remaining) just €43.50 (+VAT) per month

Limited Series B (7 remaining) just €431.50 (+VAT) per month

or

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Brilliant!

(I must note that the circuit shown there is... somehow... inducing some negativity in me.... which probably isn't unintentional.)

And the main site has an about page too, in all its glory:

http://n-gate.com/about/

Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by lanstin on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:38AM (#26622317)
Wow thanks for the link. That is too funny, a little.
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by thisistheend123 on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:36AM (#26622290)
Yes, been following n-gate along with HN for years now .. n-gate gives a whole new perspective on HN comments and casts a light on dangers of taking an echo chamber too seriously ..
Re:Suez Canal says traffic in channel resumes after stranded... by DenisM on Monday March 29, 2021 @10:29AM (#26622145)
Do tell?