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Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by Aeolun on Thursday March 25, 2021 @07:43PM (#26587090)
I think the problem is that you do not need 100% of your budget every year, but getting it back when you do need it is much harder than keeping it in the first place.

Definite case of misaligned incentives.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by crdrost on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:28AM (#26588745)
Yep! The problem happens when you divide the safety buffer up in the first place. Safety buffers demand to be shared, when one part does not use all of its safety margin you want to transfer that to another system.

Another surprising place where this happens is project scheduling. We budget time for each individual step of a project based on our guess of a 90% or 95% success rate, then our "old-timers' experience" kicks in and we double or triple our time for all the steps together, then our boss adds 50% before giving the estimate to their boss, which sounds gratuitous but it is to protect you because their boss looks at how grotesquely long the estimate is and barks out a cut of 20%, so the overall effect of those two is (3/2) × (4/5), so your boss still netted you a 20% buffer while making the skip-level feel very productive and important.

Say the 50%-confidence-to-95%-confidence gives you 30% more time as safety buffer, and you only double the estimate, and the work that you missed in your initial assessment, while it's not gonna be say half the project, maybe generously it's a third of the project or so. So the project actually takes time 1.5 measured properly, you have together budgeted 1.3 × 2 × 1.2 = 3.12 time. The total project deadline is more than half composed of safety buffer. And we still consistently overrun~!

But if Alice needs to work on some step after Bob, and Bob finishes early, when does Alice start on it? Usually not when Bob finishes. Alice has been told that Bob has until X deadline to complete, and has scheduled herself with other tasks until X. Bob says "I got done early!" and Alice says "that's great, I'm still working on other things but I will pick my tasks up right on time." Bob's safety buffer gets wasted. This does not always cause any impact to the deadline, but it does for the important steps.

Of course, if you are a web developer you already know this intuitively because you work on servers, and you don't run your servers (Alice, for example) at 100% load, because if you do then you can't respond to new requests (Bob's completion event) with low latency. It's worth thinking about, in an efficient workplace, how much are you not working so that you have excess capacity to operate efficiently?

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by marcus_holmes on Friday March 26, 2021 @07:27AM (#26590791)
Have you ever thought of just accepting that you can't predict how long a project will take to complete?

It's a revelation. You get to have some hard conversations with other managers. But in the end everyone finds it easier to deal with "it'll be ready when it's ready" rather than endless missed deadlines and overruns.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by Aeolun on Friday March 26, 2021 @08:56AM (#26591545)
In my experience people vastly prefer their fantasies to reality.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by VSerge on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:03PM (#26594416)
In my experience people demand fantasies, and will fight tooth and nail any encroachment on them by the reality that things never happen as they are planned. Although when I say this, I am thinking of one year and above kind of estimates.

When people who are experts on the topic evaluate the work needed over a period of say 3 months, even in something as notoriously hard to plan as video game production, it can hold. This entails being willing to adjust scope and resources though, when planning, in order to ensure the objectives are likely to be met.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by rntksi on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:56PM (#26594322)
This never worked in 15+ years I've been working. The people who did try that went out the door very soon once management realised some other person could tell them a date and they could plan their business around that date even though that date half of the time got missed anyhow.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by marcus_holmes on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:30PM (#26594723)
Yeah it's tough to get the point across. Worth it if you can, though. For everyone - no-one enjoys rescheduling everything because the deadline was missed again
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by ianmcgowan on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:01AM (#26589750)
If you haven't already, check out the oft-referenced book "The Principles of Product Development Flow". Based on this comment you'd really like it.

http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2009/07/principles-of-p...

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by watt on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:26PM (#26593965)
Did you notice how your budgeting / estimation guideline converges to "multiply the estimate by Pi" advice?
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by herbcso on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:00AM (#26588887)
I've never understood this about budgeting. So you allocate. A budget. These are fund YOU ARE PLANNING TO SPEND! So, OK, you DON'T spend them this year. Why the fuck don't you get to SAVE THAT MONEY!? No, instead you are punished for now spending it all and you cannot create a realistic budget for next year - why the hell not!?

Sorry, but this frustrates the hell out of me! What am I missing here? What arcane bit of finance lore leads us down this path? Am I just hopelessly naive? Is acing money such a bad thing!? I just don't get it...

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by vagrantJin on Friday March 26, 2021 @08:20AM (#26591183)
Your frustration may come from a good place, believing gov and big orgs want to be efficient. They don't and they don't have to. They are super efficient when it comes to taxes though. At least in my country, every department is trash except the revenue service which is so forward thinking and effective, they put private business to shame.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by jokethrowaway on Friday March 26, 2021 @10:21PM (#26599293)
This definitely rings true.

But I'd say it's not a feature of governments only, any sufficiently big organisation which centralise power ends up being like this. That's why large corporates need nimble startups to innovate: startups either innovate or die.

The government is just the largest example of this phenomenon - and they don't have any analogue for startups, they're just doomed to grow larger and larger over centuries until they collapse.

Look at the USA, once the perfect minarchist experiment and now the largest employer in the world.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by bradknowles on Sunday March 28, 2021 @05:27PM (#26614778)
Not here in the US. The IRS has been crippled by previous Republican administrations to the point of uselessness, as another method of giving free unlimited tax breaks to the millionaires and billionaires that bought them in office.

But god help the poor people who file simple tax returns that can be easily audited, however.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by ianmcgowan on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:10AM (#26589797)
If you don't reduce your budget next year, what does "save that money" mean to a department in a company? If this year I have 105% of last year's budget (because they always go up), what am I supposed to do with the 20% surplus from last year? Most companies wouldn't even have a place in your cost center to track a surplus, it's such a foreign concept.

Zero based budgeting is one answer to the moral hazards of either over or under-estimating your budget on purpose. If each year you start with a blank spreadsheet and then add (with justification) expenses for the year, it avoids some of the pitfalls. Not a panacea however.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_budgeting#Advantage...

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by littlestymaar on Friday March 26, 2021 @06:11AM (#26590402)
> (because they always go up)

Ahah, that would be nice. In most company I know, they are shrinking every years, because you know, “cost reduction plans”.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by hunter2_ on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:25AM (#26588997)
Just brainstorming, but maybe the irony is that your scenario somehow has even worse incentives? For example, building up that rollover number would gamify thriftiness greatly exceeding the typical "oops didn't spend it all," and think about the consequences of when you DIY something you're not the best at instead of hiring the pros.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by ike77 on Friday March 26, 2021 @05:12AM (#26590107)
For two reasons:

1) separation of duty: you might not be the best department to invest surplus

2) cost effectiveness: if you're operating with a deficit, as is generally the case with governments these days, this money is not free, so it could effectively be cheaper to give it back and re-borrow it when you actually need it

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by littlestymaar on Friday March 26, 2021 @06:09AM (#26590399)
> 1) separation of duty: you might not be the best department to invest surplus

But with this reasoning there is no surplus, because departments will spend their money at all cost.

> 2) cost effectiveness: if you're operating with a deficit, as is generally the case with governments these days, this money is not free, so it could effectively be cheaper to give it back and re-borrow it when you actually need it

That's totally fine, when GP said “Save the money” they didn't meant “on their own bank account”. It just means: the top management owe them this money when they'll need it later.

Anecdote: I'm currently working on a project started in emergency earlier this month, which must be done before the end of the month (because it's the end of the accounting year at this company) for this exact reason. And this project is overprices by a factor close to two, because this money really had to be spent!

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by abduhl on Friday March 26, 2021 @09:32AM (#26591919)
Top management doesn’t “owe” them any money when they need it later. Say you budget $100 for dinner tonight and you go out and it costs $75. Do you owe the restaurant $25? While certainly some people might roll the $25 into the next day’s meals, some people might allocate that $25 to another cost center like buying a new car.

Budgets are meant to estimate costs and manage cash flow. From a greedy team perspective it’s best (and self interested) to try to game the system as much as possible so you get the largest share of the pie. From the organizational perspective it’s best to reallocate capital efficiently, especially if a team consistently over budgets.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by nybble41 on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:11PM (#26593800)
> Say you budget $100 for dinner tonight and you go out and it costs $75. Do you owe the restaurant $25?

No, but if you accurately forecast that dinner will cost $100 on average, and this time it only happened to cost $75, you should put most of the savings aside for the other times when it will cost $125 and not reallocate it to be spent on something else.

Consistent over-budgeting is still an issue which would need to be addressed, of course, but a system where any annual cost underrun is treated as over-budgeting and punished by reallocating that part of the budget to other groups ignores the inevitable presence of risk in the budget forecast.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by abduhl on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:09PM (#26594473)
We’re arguing about different things it appears. This thread started with someone saying that a team coming in under budget should is “owed” that money in the future by management. I said this isn’t so and that it’s a self centered and myopic viewpoint. You are talking about punishment and reallocation, presumably by reducing the budget the next cycle. I’m not in favor of that unless it’s clear that the team is consistently over budgeting.

For example, if a team says they need $100 a year and comes in at $90 then I don’t think next year’s budget should be $110 while some people in this thread think it should be. That makes no sense. Neither do I think the budget should be cut to $90. Unless something has changed, the budget should stay the same.

Your point about average cost just means that you’re budgeting on the wrong timeframe. If you estimate your average dinner is $100 but you’re spending $75 most of the time except for one huge dinner every month then you should be budgeting $75 for dinner and then budget separately for one large dinner a month. Similarly, if a team says they need $10MM a year but half of that is them trying to amortize a $25MM cost over 5 years then they are budgeting incorrectly. Their budget should be $5MM with a $25MM side fund contributed to on a risk adjusted basis.

The worst case scenario is the team budgeting $10MM when they only need $5MM and losing control of their budget so that when the real charge comes due they’re fucked because they’ve been spending $10MM for the past 5 years without realizing the fixed charge is coming or, worse, realizing the fixed charge is coming but just ignoring it so they can buy new office furniture and exhaust their budget this year selfishly.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by nybble41 on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:44PM (#26595458)
> For example, if a team says they need $100 a year and comes in at $90 then I don’t think next year’s budget should be $110 while some people in this thread think it should be.

IMHO it depends on why the expenses were less than the budget. If it's a matter of probability or essential uncertainty then the savings should be set aside for other occasions where luck isn't as favorable. If the department realized cost savings by improving business practices then most or all of the savings should stay with the department to be invested in future improvements (a one-time carry-over into the next budget period) and/or distributed as reward to those responsible for the improvements, as an incentive to continue making such improvements. If costs were lower because the department didn't accomplish everything they set out to do then that might be a justification for reallocating their budget, and/or implementing more drastic changes to get them back on track.

> Your point about average cost just means that you’re budgeting on the wrong timeframe.

The timeframe for the budget would generally be predetermined (e.g. one fiscal year) and not set by the department itself.

> If you estimate your average dinner is $100 but you’re spending $75 most of the time except for one huge dinner every month then you should be budgeting $75 for dinner and then budget separately for one large dinner a month.

Sure, but I was referring to probabilistic variation due to uncertainty in the forecast, not a predictable mix of large and small expenses. And the "dinners" in this analogy would be once per budget period (i.e. annual for most organizations), not frequent enough to average out.

Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by abduhl on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:15PM (#26595803)
I think we agree in general and are just quibbling about the details of how to budget correctly (timeframes, line items, etc.). Most of the issues that come up with these stories of people getting their budgets slashed if they don't spend enough or having to buy a bunch of bullshit at the end of the year are just a result of poor budgeting at some point which has been allowed to continue.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by devnonymous on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:08AM (#26589788)
It is about opportunity costs. The budget you did not spend could have been spent elsewhere in the meantime and since it didn't get invested elsewhere, it's not a savings, that's a net loss, because of course anything less than 100% utilisation of 100% of "resources", 100% of the time is a loss .. Or some such.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by littlestymaar on Friday March 26, 2021 @06:13AM (#26590409)
That's probably because of this kind of reasoning that people just throw away money threw windows, because “gotta get rid of it all”.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by hadsed on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:36AM (#26589049)
Seems it's the yearly cycle not matching up to the longer cycle of certain needs that's a problem.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by EricE on Saturday March 27, 2021 @01:09PM (#26603714)
Ding Ding Ding! They aren't misaligned, they are flat-out perverse incentives.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by bottled_poe on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:06AM (#26589510)
Why aren’t there rolling budgets over multiple years with annual reviews on spend?
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by throwaway0a5e on Friday March 26, 2021 @09:41AM (#26592014)
Because nobody in government has any incentive to do something that risks shrinking the size of the pie.
Re:All my servers have an 8 GB empty file on disk by pishpash on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:05PM (#26587738)
If only there was a way to get things only when you need, like trading.