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Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by Barrin92 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:26AM (#26551419)
simply put because AI is way too stupid for that kind of stuff. When we talk about AI today most of what we talk about is actually just processing sensory input at a low level.

Wargames and strategy require cognition and level of contextual awareness and understanding of human motivation and intent that falls well into the realm of sci-fi AGI. No military confrontation is generic enough to run on some ML pattern-matching or travelling salesman type algorithm.

I mean just to talk about how low-level and limited AI is, when you take any modern learning system, you teach it Atari Breakout, if you adjust the panel by a bunch of pixels or rotate the screen you need to relearn or transfer-learn the game because the algorithm doesn't even understand the ontology of the game and really just manipulates pixels.

Even Deepmind's starcaft bot was stupid in this sense. It didn't understand starcraft strategy at all (which was visible in it's nonsensical unit combinations it was building) but simply out-microed its opponent, it just had better mechanics.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by dwohnitmok on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:25AM (#26552056)
> Even Deepmind's starcaft bot was stupid in this sense. It didn't understand starcraft strategy at all (which was visible in it's nonsensical unit combinations it was building) but simply out-microed its opponent, it just had better mechanics.

Protoss Alphastar was fantastic. It was definitely not just out-microing opponents (after later refinements Alphastar's micro limitations were very human-like), but really had an understanding of build orders, positioning, choke points and the like. Here's a great game it played against Serral (one of if not the top Zerg player in the world) where it holds fantastically against Serral's aggression and is able to use the layout of its own base to pick apart what looked like a winning position for Serral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6qmPNyKRGw

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by tornato7 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:53AM (#26552233)
As an avid StarCraft player I still think AlphaStar is one of the most impressive AI programs ever made. While it didn't get everything quite right, it exhibited planning and creativity in it's builds, and didn't just do the same exact thing every time; it scouted and reacted to the opponent's moves with professional-level proficiency.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by CyanBird on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:25AM (#26552437)
It didn't react it had pre-planned build orders

That's something which was mentioned when it came to deep mind team talking of all the "different agents" they had trained

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by dwohnitmok on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @11:33AM (#26556213)
As far as I understand it did actually react.

AlphaStar's training process consisted of two phases: an imitation-of-human-players learning phase that created a base set of "templates" and then self-play among agents seeded from those templates.

When creating those templates, they basically ended up with "baked-in" build orders. But self-play among agents ended up creating a variety of reactive strategies on top of those build orders, so that agents would modify them on-the-fly as the game situation changed. At a high level this is basically how humans use build orders as well.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by Retric on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:33AM (#26552478)
Later refinements where still quite superhuman, just in terms of consistency not abusing stalker micro. For example it doesn’t need control groups, that’s a clear sign it’s not sticking close to human limitations.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by onethought on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:30AM (#26552838)
Yeah the alpha star team didn’t really emphasise it. It’s APMs were human like in count, but they had basically 0 wasted actions, they were all meaningful. Lots of APM are used by repeat keys or mass clicking.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by dwohnitmok on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @11:37AM (#26556269)
> Lots of APM are used by repeat keys or mass clicking.

Both of those (and more) are filtered by EAPM measures (effective APM) and even on those metrics Alphastar still had a lower EAPM count than most pros.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by Retric on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @12:05PM (#26556631)
EAPM still includes a lot of pointless clicking by pros. Just look at periods of the game when there is nothing productive to do. By comparison a throttled Aplphastar has no need for any pointless actions and can get timings inhumanly precise which games EAPM in the other direction.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by dwohnitmok on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @11:36AM (#26556247)
Kind of. The only reason it didn't use control groups is because it had "soft" control groups of its own (IIRC there were limits on how granular of actions it could take as well as how many distinct move commands it could issue).

I mean looking at that Serral game I don't see any superhuman micro on the part of Alphastar. Just fantastic exploitation of base layout and steadily pressing every strategic weakness Serral made in his attack.

If anything on the consistency front, Alphastar's main advantages came from superhuman macro (effectively never forgetting about making sure workers are busy), but the edge there vs human pros is pretty slight.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by Retric on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @12:17PM (#26556765)
Effective macro requires good micro. That’s one of the reasons archon mode is such an advantage.

> steadily pressing every strategic weakness Serral made in his attack

Again a very micro limited activity. Alphastar wasn’t very superhuman in that someone could get those inputs down about that quickly, they just can’t keep the pace up over time. Endurance is one of those human limits that is often ignored when talking about esports, but it’s real and huge influence on gameplay.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by blackbear_ on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:53AM (#26552230)
> Simply put because AI is way too stupid for that kind of stuff. When we talk about AI today most of what we talk about is actually just processing sensory input at a low level.

This is a very narrow view of AI. In fact, the limitations you are talking about apply only to deep learning (which is frequently and mistakenly confused for AI nowadays). Other well-studied branches of artificial intelligence include planning [1] and reasoning [2].

By far the biggest problem is to formalize the real world and build a realistic simulation which the AI system can play with. After that, a decent system would blow most humans out of the water.

> Even Deepmind's starcaft bot was stupid in this sense. It didn't understand starcraft strategy at all (which was visible in it's nonsensical unit combinations it was building) but simply out-microed its opponent, it just had better mechanics.

Maybe, what about go and chess? The feeling there was that humans did not understand the game very well.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_planning_and_schedul...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_reasoning

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by pbronez on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:15AM (#26553628)
> limitations you are talking about apply only to deep learning (which is frequently and mistakenly confused for AI nowadays)

Deep learning is also where all the money and attention is going, and where the revolutionary gains have been seen in the last few years. They’re pretty good at compressing huge datasets into a queriable structure and generating features for hierarchical data, but are just one component of a generalized system that could handle something like war.

> By far the biggest problem is to formalize the real world and build a realistic simulation which the AI system can play with

Strong agree! The fundamental challenge is to create digital model of the world with enough detail & accuracy that you can run optimizations on it and trust the results. This is as true for robotic aircraft as it is for autonomous cars or an e-commerce data warehouse. People need to decide what subset of the world to observe, deploy & maintain sensors to collect those observations, build information systems to organize & serve the observations, and maintain the whole thing. Then maybe you can start running AI/ML on it.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by nindalf on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @03:40AM (#26552145)
I don’t think it’s correct to characterise these bots as one trick ponies, winning based on micro. Take the Dota 2 AI built by OpenAI. Dota 2 isn’t micro intense, it’s mostly about strategy. These bots are capable of beating the best human teams. Their strategy is interesting because it’s different from how humans have played this game as long as it has existed. For example, in a 5v5 humans will skew resources towards so 2-3 players (“cores”) have more to work with than the 2 “supports”. This has always been taken for granted. But OpenAI distributed them evenly, allowing for some interesting strategies.

It’s still not perfect. It still can’t play the full game with no restrictions. But it is discovering new strategies that humans never did. It’s not just micro.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by boomboomsubban on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:07AM (#26552316)
Have humans adapted their strategy with similar success? As I would guess those strategies rely on the improved micro in movement, hp vs damage possible analysis, and communication.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by yvdriess on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @09:32AM (#26554744)
Two things stand out to me, and they have nothing to do with micro:

The AI consistently did a 'deathball push' strategy, where small early advantages snowball and they pushed hard to exploit that early advantage. One of the things that enabled that was that resources were more evenly spread across the team, allowing the heroes that were strong earlier to do something with that advantage. Competitive and casual ranked play hasn't switch to always do deathball, but there is a marked increase in the amount of resources that early-timing 'support' heroes take, they are a lot greedier than before OpenAI. (as pointed out by a sibling post) It's unclear if that is either because of lessons from OpenAI-five, or because of the balance changes (there is more resources to be had around the map these days).

The second thing that stands out is that the 1v1 OpenAI and the 5v5 OpenAI did buy a lot more of 'consumable' items, mana and HP potions basically. These were considered too inefficient before, people tended to prefer items that gave a more over-time regeneration and long-term efficiency. What the bots did was /constantly/ ship consumables over, which was kind of surprising at the time. It used that consumable resource to either force an opponent away from xp/gold resources (lane, jungle) or allow it to stay after aggression. Once pros started buying a lot more consumables, casual players quickly followed suit.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by nindalf on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @08:01AM (#26554017)
Sort of, but I can't be sure that this attributed entirely to OpenAI or other changes. It used to be more common 5-6 years ago to devote all available resources to one player ("carry") and the other 4 make space for the carry. In the last few years it's become more common to have 3 cores who get sufficient resources. It also sometimes happens that the 4th player has resources equal to the top 3. But always, the 5th player is dirt poor.

FWIW the developer of the game has also tried to fix this over the years, devising ways to get more resources to the 4th and 5th players. For example, there is a system similar to UBI where all members of the team benefit equally from "bounty runes". But till date, the bots have achieved a level of egalitarianism yet to be matched by human players.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by leetcrew on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @09:38AM (#26554803)
> FWIW the developer of the game has also tried to fix this over the years, devising ways to get more resources to the 4th and 5th players. For example, there is a system similar to UBI where all members of the team benefit equally from "bounty runes". But till date, the bots have achieved a level of egalitarianism yet to be matched by human players.

this kinda makes sense. I'm more of a cs player, so hopefully my observations aren't totally off base. generally, a group of five humans will have some sense of who their best player is, who their worst player is, and who's good at specific roles. for instance, you might deliberately send your worst player into a bombsite first to gain info about the opponent's defense (and save your best player to react to that info). or you might send the person who's best at "entry fragging".

an egalitarian playstyle doesn't make sense when you have human players with different capabilities. you want to play to each person's strengths. if you have an algorithm controlling five heroes (or five instances of the same algorithm, idk how it works), there's no "best player" to send more resources to or dedicate to a specific role. I don't know enough about moba to say whether this is even an advantage.

none of this stuff is particularly interesting in counterstrike. a circa 1999 aimbot with a good ping will beat any human player.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by yvdriess on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @10:16AM (#26555279)
Replace player by character and you're basically there. Typical about MOBA's (and now also in e.g. Valorant these days) is that each character you choose comes with a certain 'kit' of skills and stats that give it different strength and weaknesses. A character might have powerful spells early on, others are very weak early but dominate towards the end because scale really well with extra resoures. The former will typically act in a more sacrificial role to enable the latter. The OpenAI favored a strategy where you snowball an early advantage into an early to midgame win, before the 'carry' characters start to dominate. That in itself is not new though, it just executed it in a weird but consistent way. One of the weird ways was indeed that 'egalitarian' way of having the 'support' characters be more greedy, enabling them to have a higher impact on the early/mid game timing, when the deathball starts rolling.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by nerdponx on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:42AM (#26552921)
The Shadow Fiend AI was consistently beating pros in 1v1 because it had flawless technical execution of the standard gameplay on that hero, eventually forcing errors out of the fallible and emotional human players. It wasn't anything new, it was just perfect.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by hntrader on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @10:44AM (#26555640)
They've moved beyond that now. Shadow Fiend won mostly due to superior micro but their newer 5v5 bot has human-level "planning" and executive function.
Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by IG_Semmelweiss on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:27AM (#26552808)
Actually, it is famously said that what made napoleon a fabulous field marshall was his extensive reading and learning of historical battles.

This gave him an extraordinary ability to contrast live battle situations with a huge library of learned historical situations, helping him to make decisions on battle plans.

Re:DARPA now has AI-controlled F-16s working as a team in vi... by Breza on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:00PM (#26595626)
You're exactly correct about war games. Warfare is more than just moving units around a battlefield. It involves psyops, cyber, logistics, and other factors that are way too complex for contemporary AI to consider.