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Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by lquist on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:12PM (#26544493)
Interesting take. Is there a next after Starship?
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by xoa on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:24PM (#26544679)
Starship is significantly scaled down from their original plans. Despite being enormous, it's actually about the minimum viable size. Assuming there is the traffic to support one of course, there are actually a number of scaling advantages to greater size when using stainless steel as the construction material. So while it'd take a long while, SpaceX may well ultimately find it advantageous to do a larger Starship 2.

Another area that humanity hasn't even gotten to the stage of considering yet would be dedicated interplanetary space transport craft. For now SpaceX is planning to just use Starships for getting out of gravity wells and getting between them. But the kind of cadence, $/kg, and sheer capacity Starship will enable also opens up the real option of permanent orbital assembly and maintenance facilities, and in turn the construction of spacecraft optimized purely for use outside of gravity wells (so much more emphasis on ISP vs thrust, no need to worry about aerodynamics, far less restriction on size, optimization for long time travel like potential synthetic gravity via spin, more radiation shielding, etc). No reason SpaceX couldn't lead the charge on that too in principle, though certain attractive forms of propulsion like anything using nuclear would probably necessitate more government involvement until/unless SpaceX can form their own mature government far down the road.

Anyway, $100-200/kg (or less!) and huge volume/high cadence is so radically disruptive that it's kind of hard to predict how space will look a few decades down the line. It's going to be a wild thing to watch, with lots of opportunity.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by m4rtink on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:58PM (#26546932)
There are quite a few benefits of how current Starship has been designed and actually nicely demonstrates how cleverly though out the whole thing is!

It goes between two places with at least some sort of atmosphere by default (or one with and on without for the Lunar variant) so while indeed dragging aerosurfaces with your in the vacuum of space might seem wasteful on the first look, you can save huge amounts of delta-v once you arrive at your destination due to atmospheric braking.

A purely built for space vacuum only craft could be built to be much lighter but would also need to loose all that excess interplanetary speed with engine power alone, potentially negating the advantages quite a bit.

There are, of course, various hybrid approaches: - the space only craft still could have some limited aerodynamics to do earocapture to orbit at the destination or at least do aerobraking from a "cheap" eccentric capture orbit - you could have a space only "hotel" ship on a cycler orbit and get passengers and cargo using Starship like "taxi" ships from a planet - a big complex space-only ship could have fancy high tech low thrust & high ISP engines that would not realistically fit on craft that needs to be fairly aerodynamic

Also as for in space construction - indeed, it will enable really massive and efficient space structures, but we are not there yet space infrastructure wise. And Starships so far have shown how easily they can be made in their current form using very basic tech during their assembly, even compared to tech used for existing decades old expandable rockets! :)

So no doubt eventually big efficient high tech in space cruisers will carry the most interplanetary traffic, it seems like Starship is a surprisingly good fit for the time being & for putting in place the building stones of that future. :)

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by cryptonector on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:43PM (#26549499)
Yes, this. With orbital assembly you can have fewer engines (save on weight) all optimized for vacuum and no fairing or a super-minimal fairing (save on weight).

Heck, you don't need orbital assembly for that. SpaceX could put in orbit a single- or two-engine starship with no landing legs and no heat shielding for transfers. Eventually they could decommission one such truck to make an orbital station.

> Anyway, $100-200/kg (or less!) and huge volume/high cadence is so radically disruptive that it's kind of hard to predict how space will look a few decades down the line. It's going to be a wild thing to watch, with lots of opportunity.

There might be so many satellites in orbit as to permanently disrupt astronomy on Earth, necessitating a fleet of replacements for the James Webb telescope.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by rbanffy on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:09AM (#26553578)
> Heck, you don't need orbital assembly for that. SpaceX could put in orbit a single- or two-engine starship with no landing legs and no heat shielding for transfers.

That's SpaceX's lunar lander plan - a Starship that'd never need to come back to Earth except for refueling.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by AstralStorm on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:55AM (#26553472)
Keeping stuff in space has a maintenance cost - both station keeping which can be relatively cheap, and maintenance for any space trash collisions.

Most importantly, there is no commercial space station to move people and current starship test articles are not fitted for passenger transport nor low earth orbit rendezvous.

It's a long road from even a properly working Starship towards this goal.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by rbanffy on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:20AM (#26553667)
Maintenance for space junk collisions should be cheaper than landing and relaunching, and, if launching heavier things gets cheaper, we can afford making them less delicate.
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by systemvoltage on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:11PM (#26545341)
> permanent orbital assembly

Sorry not familiar with these plans - does this mean that we assemble a bigger rocket (by using earth based rockets) at ISS level orbits and then relaunch to another planet?

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by NortySpock on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:47PM (#26549536)
I assume this is going to be not too much more than "we dock several components together in Earth orbit, then fly the whole thing where we want it to go"

In theory this would work for anything that is permanently in vacuum, such as the NASA Lunar Gateway (though it's currently planned for lunar-orbit operations only), or some future low-Earth orbit station such as Gateway Station[1] or some sort of Venus, Mars, or Ceres orbital habitat.

[1] https://gatewayspaceport.com/the-gateway/

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by Ajedi32 on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:31PM (#26544790)
After Starship, Elon has stated he wants an upgraded Starship with double the radius: https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-elon-musk-starship-the-next...

After that, orbital infrastructure: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1373132222555848713

And possibly nuclear propulsion? https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1153378777893888005

Not to mention colonies on other planets: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1373735946244431873

Most of that is pretty long-term though. I suspect Starship will remain a commercially viable platform for quite some time after its inception.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by Someone on Monday March 22, 2021 @06:45PM (#26548397)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship mostly lists uses that don’t have a real market right now:

  - Reusable launch system
  - Intercontinental transport
  - Space tourism
  - Earth–lunar transport
  - Mars colonization
  - Multiplanetary transport
The only thing with an existing market in that list is “launch system”. They’ll have to develop the market for 100 ton launches, though (100 tons is 20% of the mass of the ISS)

Because of that, I would say starship still has to prove it is commercially viable.

Space tourism, in particular, highly depends on how safe one can make the trip. A 1:1000 risk of death likely would make many would-be passengers think twice before booking a trip.

It also would depend on making the trip nice. The first few tourists might go for bragging rights, but after that, one would need attractions in space. Building those there will increase the cost of a trip.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by NortySpock on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:36PM (#26549445)
Earth-Lunar transport now technically has a market: CLPS

https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-servic...

Granted, it's a monopsony for now but...

Also, the next market might be "companies who want to mine asteroids for rare metals or rocket fuel", in which case SpaceX may be in the "sells pickaxes to gold miners" business.

Those who pursue asteroid mining would do well to review the history of recently dormant or acquired companies such as Planetary Resources, Deep Space Industries, and Shackleton Energy Company.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by AstralStorm on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:56AM (#26553485)
Not even close, Starship even in biggest variant is not a tug or a space station.
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by cryptonector on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:46PM (#26549531)
Yes, it may well be that there's no market for 100 tons to orbit launch vehicles. It also may be that the only "market" for interplanetary travel is taxpayer funding. It's also possible that 100 tons to orbit for super low cost might be so transformative that in a couple of decades time we might actually see asteroid mining (which even now seems farfetched) to pay for it all.
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by Ajedi32 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @09:50AM (#26554944)
Elon has stated that Starship will likely be cheaper per-launch than Falcon 9 despite having more than 5x the payload capacity: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1258580078218412033 (Guessing this is primarily due to reusability of the second stage, which Falcon 9 lacks.) So even if everything else fails to pan out Starship could still end up being extremely profitable just by dominating the existing launch market.

That said, I agree that some of Elon's longer-term goals in space are somewhat more questionable from an economic perspective. Safety is still a big question mark when it comes to tourism and intercontinental transport, and a lot of the other proposed uses (such as Elon's goal of settling Mars) have questionable economic value. Will be interesting to see if any new markets get created by Starhip's record low launch costs.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by justaguy88 on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:13PM (#26544515)
Elon Musk has mentioned an 18m wide version of starship (current is 9m)
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by 6pac3rings on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @04:36AM (#26552489)
Is the cost to doubling the width of starship proportional to pizza?
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by dang on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @02:26PM (#26558401)
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments? You've been doing it a lot and it's not what this site is supposed to be for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by 6pac3rings on Saturday March 27, 2021 @03:31AM (#26600653)
I was wanting to compare the industrial scale cost of doubling the width of a pizza to doubling the width of the cross section of a starship. Your entitled to you're opinion
Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by AstralStorm on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:00AM (#26553517)
No, much higher, because of extra engines and more plumbing.

Starship is already pretty marginal of an upper stage and it's fired early. More marginal than old Space Shuttle, but cheaper to refurbish.

Re:Concern in Europe that the Ariane 6 and Vega-C rockets wi... by rbanffy on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @07:30AM (#26553758)
OTOH, the weight of the rocket grows mostly linearly (it's essentially a skin around propellants), the number of engines grows with the square of the diameter and the fuel volume grows at a cubic rate, so the engines can burn for longer (at some point, aerospike engines will become practical).