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Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by tazjin on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:39AM (#26512577)
Just a minor comment (I currently live in Egypt):

> Control centres will monitor infrastructure and security electronically, roofs will be covered in solar panels, payments will be cashless

Good luck with that - a huge number of places don't even put prices up because everything is negotiable and cash is king. If they only want the kind of Western-style stores with explicit prices in this area, then this could be restated as "we don't want the poor part of our population here".

Cairo (and to larger degree, Giza) have a very intense, unique feel inside the city and I don't think this move will change anything about that.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by riskable on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:07AM (#26513481)
Hey now... Just because a payment is cashless doesn't mean you can't haggle the price down. I've been in plenty of shops where you bring the item to the counter and the cashier enters the price directly into the register. No bar code necessary!

Even if you use a barcode there's no reason why the price can't be entered in directly or modified at the behest of the cashier. In the West we just don't trust our cashiers enough to do that sort of thing so we lock out that power ("Manager assistance needed at isle four!").

What the world needs right now is cashless payments that don't have absurd (>0.1%) transaction fees. I used to work at First Data (largest credit card processor) and you know how much it costs them to execute a credit card transaction? NOTHING. It's literally nothing.

It's not even a factor of, "we have this many servers in this many data centers and here's how much the electricity costs, divided by the total number of transactions in a given day." Why? Because every customer that uses First Data still pays a monthly fee that more than makes up for the cost of all the employees, data centers, software, etc etc.

If all First Data ever collected was that monthly fee they'd still be profitable (assuming all they did was handle credit card transactions).

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by haltingproblem on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:33PM (#26519980)
In India, UPI payments approaching 100 million a day, are free for sender and receiver. The RBI (Indian Fed) has a subsidiary which operates the switch.

The payments are bank-to-bank account and non-recourse so they cannot be pulled back once initiated. There is no credit and fraud component.

India is not an exception and most other countries have similar structure. I think WeChat payments have a similar cost structure though I might be wrong. Most payment systems are very low cost (approaching cost of bandwidth). For comparison, FedWire can transmit payments upto 100 million and above for ~$1.20. Below $100 Million it is $0.90 ;)

UPI Statistics: https://www.npci.org.in/what-we-do/upi/product-statistics

FedWire Cost Table: https://www.frbservices.org/resources/fees/wires-2021.html

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by powerapple on Saturday March 20, 2021 @05:04AM (#26521754)
On WeChat, there is a WeChat Wallet, similar to AliPay, you can store cash in it, so there is no need to go through bank for payment since the buyer and seller all have a wallet from the same company.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by maya24 on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:29PM (#26518784)
A majority of credit card fees goes to the issuing bank. Like a huge percentage of it. Visa and credit card processors take a much smaller percentage relative to the banks.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:41PM (#26518883)
Yes - the banks then hand a substantial portion of these fees back to the customer via credit card rewards.

We have a bizarre system where retailers mark everything up an extra 2%, to give their more well-off customers (that pay with decent credit cards) an effective 2% discount and the ability to dispute charges.

I think retailers would love a new system with less transaction fees, but banks definitely would not, and some customers may not either if it means sacrificing their credit card rewards and perks.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by oliv__ on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:47PM (#26520376)
Come on now, everybody's got a 2% cashback card
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by macromagnon on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:12PM (#26520521)
Some even have 3-4, all maxed out.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by tazjin on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:57AM (#26514842)
There's still more to this than just having payment infrastructure.

People need to have cards, the cards need to have money on them - both of these are already assumptions that aren't guaranteed to hold for a lot of people.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by Aperocky on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:46PM (#26516241)
Moving to cellphone payments is actually easier than having cards though.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by tazjin on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:00PM (#26518109)
Cell networks are only semi-reliable here, a significant portion of people don't use smart phones (or really care about their phones), and that also needs to be linked to some electronic "value store".

Sure, it's possible to overcome all of these things in theory - but at what benefit to the population? Cashless payments are not a goal in and of themselves.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by subsaharancoder on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:53PM (#26518493)
You don't need a smartphone to enable cellphone financial transactions, check out Kenya's Safaricom Mpesa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa which is SIM card based, doesn't use any data, has the option of using USSD or Mobile App. It's already available in Egypt.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by xeromal on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:50PM (#26520050)
You missed his last point though. Cashless payments are not a goal in and of themselves. What benefit do these people gain?
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by Aperocky on Saturday March 20, 2021 @09:32PM (#26527421)
It's more safe and more convenient?
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by warkdarrior on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:19PM (#26518705)
What do University of South Sudan denars have to do with Kenya?
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by subsaharancoder on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:08PM (#26519090)
Can't tell if you're being serious or just trolling, but I'll bite so here you go USSD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstructured_Supplementary_Ser...
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by tinus_hn on Saturday March 20, 2021 @07:08AM (#26522237)
Surely a newly built government seat dream city will come with mobile phone coverage.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by torgian on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:52PM (#26520418)
Something people forget, however, is that cash in hand is better than a piece of plastic. It’s arguably easier to negotiate when you have cash.

Also, there are taxes. Easier to dodge taxes with cash transactions than it is with a piece of plastic.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by gdsdfe on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:49PM (#26518969)
I don't think it's about price entry, it's much much more tangible to someone when your 'flashing' cash while haggling than showing them your phone or credit card
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by throwaway0a5e on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:46AM (#26512627)
> If they only want the kind of Western-style stores with explicit prices in this area, then this could be restated as "we don't want the poor part of our population here".

We both know that's exactly what they want.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by rover0 on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:24PM (#26518738)
Even if there are workarounds for this specific problem, the signal being sent is clear.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by Waterluvian on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:39PM (#26519266)
Is haggling anything but a waste of time? My understanding is that it's like haggling for cars. The buyer never really wins, they at best "don't lose."
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by nine_k on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:30PM (#26519614)
Haggling has no point in a supermarket where the cashier's responsibility is maximizing throughout, and the streams of customers are thick.

Haggling works better at small shops with few customers and no lines. It allows the seller to have a huge markup on buyers who have little experience or time, or aren't as price-sensitive. It also allows for a human connection between the seller and a discerning buyer, and has an entertainment value for them both, like a short game.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by EmilioMartinez on Saturday March 20, 2021 @08:06AM (#26522608)
>It allows the seller to have a huge markup on buyers who have little experience or time

Honestly, that sounds like ripping people off to me. An important part of social mobility is being able to venture into different businesses. Experience in a subject is an advantage in many dimentions, but having to learn new things while having your suppliers exploit your inexperience sounds like an unjust burden.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by pasttense01 on Saturday March 20, 2021 @02:29PM (#26524990)
Nobody has little experience except tourists and they can afford it (and even with the huge markups the locally made stuff is probably cheaper than what it could be bought for in the U.S.)
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by vondur on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:45PM (#26520022)
It can be a waste of time when you are fleeing Roman soldiers!
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by tibu on Saturday March 20, 2021 @03:09AM (#26521377)
How much?
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by M277 on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:02AM (#26512779)
It's not just the fixed pricing, but everything is more expensive there. Much more. The poor part of the population couldn't even dream to live in the new capital.

There's a theory that the recent minimum wage increase for the government sector was actually because some government workers now have to live there, but they financially can't.

Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by 0xcoffee on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:06AM (#26512828)
We have cashless markets over here and they just key in the price. Cashless != fixed price
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by tim333 on Saturday March 20, 2021 @03:35AM (#26521454)
They'll probably make it a condition of leasing real estate or maybe a local law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Gouna shows you can do that kind of thing in Egypt. They have western style no haggle with high prices.
Re:Egypt prepares to start move to new capital, away from th... by taurath on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:54PM (#26519353)
A lot of the push to go away from cash is for tax evasion and money laundering purposes, so expect that push to continue.