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Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by ClumsyPilot on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:53AM (#26512228)
>"we should allow developing countries"

Not to pick on you, but I often hear this frasing in the 'first world' and surely you dont 'allow' or 'disallow' internal policies to an sovereign nation?

It sounds like a Freudianslip or something, the reality is that its easy to bully or bribe officials in developing nations.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by tsimionescu on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:38AM (#26512557)
I get where you're coming from, but in this case they are completely right to use this phrasing, with exactly the connotation you are talking about: the status quo is that the first world is NOT allowing these countries to run their affairs as they want internally.

That is, any developing country is presented with 2 options by the developed world: either accept 'free trade' (allow foreign investors to buy up the local industry, commit to IP laws, don't apply tariffs) or no one will be allowed to trade with you or send you aid.

In the meantime, powerful countries are taking numerous protectionist measures in their key industries, since that is the only way to actually be prosperous.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by btown on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:37PM (#26518847)
> either accept 'free trade' (allow foreign investors to buy up the local industry, commit to IP laws, don't apply tariffs) or no one will be allowed to trade with you or send you aid.

Do multi-national trade agreements (which I believe are the core mechanism for this) actually penalize signatories for trading with non-signatories? Or is it more that trade between signatories is so advantaged that no company within a signatory state would be competitive were it to trade with a counterpart in a non-signatory state?

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by bluepizza on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:02AM (#26512290)
> Not to pick on you, but I often hear this frasing in the 'first world' and surely you dont 'allow' or 'disallow' internal policies to an sovereign nation?

Not exactly. Between forcing their hand on disadvantageous trade deals, lodging complaints and enforcing restrictions with the WTO, and outright installing dictators and funding militias - allowing or disallowing is all what the first world ever does.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by throwaway210222 on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:25AM (#26512458)
"I often hear this [phrasing] in the 'first world' and surely you don't 'allow' or 'disallow' internal policies to an sovereign nation?"

Forget about the third-world, right now the USA is not-allowing Germany the right to build a pipeline with Russia!

First-world - check, sovereign - check, allies - check.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by dahfizz on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:01AM (#26512777)
> the USA is not-allowing Germany the right to build a pipeline with Russia!

The USA is threatening trade sanctions if Germany builds the pipeline. I would not call that "not-allowing".

That seems to be OP's whole point. The US is responding as a sovereign nation to actions of other sovereign nations. Phraseology like "allow" and "disallow" are not accurate. If Germany does the cost-benefit analysis and decides to cancel the pipeline because they don't want trade sanctions, that was their decision as an independent nation. It is not as if we are threatening war.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by DiogenesKynikos on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:32AM (#26513084)
The US is exploiting its centrality in the international financial system, though. No other country uses secondary sanctions so extensively to dictate to other countries who they may and may not trade with.

When the US pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal, for example, it essentially ordered European companies not to trade with Iran. Even European companies that have no business in the US are afraid to do business with Iran, because American secondary sanctions will still hit them. No European bank will lend to a European company that does business with Iran, out of fear of American sanctions.

These sorts of actions will eventually provoke a reaction: either the establishment of alternate financial systems or retaliatory sanctions.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by ClumsyPilot on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:35AM (#26513803)
The law is threatening fines if you exceed the speed limit. By that logic.

Are allowed to break the law? Are you not?

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by rsj_hn on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:29PM (#26518300)
There is no right to trade with the US, or with anyone else.

If the US wants to impose a tariff to nations that do X, that does not mean that the US is forcing these nations to do anything. They can pay the tarrif, change their behavior, or sell their goods elsewhere. Or they can charge a counter-tarrif -- oops, not if they are an export-dependent economy they can't. That's the crux of the issue.

Germany needs to pay their own workers enough so the German economy is not dependent on exporting a 1/3 of their GDP each year just to maintain domestic employment.

Obviously when you create an economy that crashes the moment others stop letting you run massive trade surpluses, then you are effectively handing your sovereignty over to your trading partners.

Whining about that and blaming your trading partners for using the power Germany has given them seems a bit naive.

Germany will never be sovereign as long as it is an export-dependent economy.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by dahfizz on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:25PM (#26515228)
My landlord raised my rent this year. Are they not allowing me to live in my apartment?
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by ClumsyPilot on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:48PM (#26515544)
Are you with a straight face equating consequences of breaking the law (fines and jailtime) with paying rent?
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by dahfizz on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:11PM (#26515805)
No, I'm making it obvious that collecting fees does not constitute forcing someone to do something.
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by nytgop77 on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:52PM (#26518983)
stop dating this girl or i will raise the rent x10. my english is not that good, but 'forcing' does not seem far.. maybe 'coercing' fits better, but the idea is very similar, make somebody do stuff against their will.
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by dane-pgp on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:55PM (#26515645)
You're not allowed to break the speed limit even if you pay the fine. You are allowed to live in your apartment if you pay the demanded rent.
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by dahfizz on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:23PM (#26515938)
> You are allowed to live in your apartment if you pay the demanded rent.

ding ding ding. Germany is allowed to build whatever pipelines they want, they just also might have to pay US trade sanctions. Without a threat of force, we are not forcing them to do anything.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by ClumsyPilot on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:41PM (#26519278)
that sentense doesn't even make sence, you don't 'pay' senctions
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by throwaway210222 on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:21AM (#26512964)
Nonsense. The USA would not have gone to all the trouble to pass legislation to sanction Nordstream2 if they didn't think it would be effective.

The USA didn't just do it to voice their displeasure: they could have done that with an email.

They truly think its enough of a hammer to stop the pipeline.

Hence "won't allow"

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by edflsafoiewq on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:06AM (#26512316)
Free trade is usually done on a tit-for-tat basis. I think the GP is saying they should allow protectionist policies without "tatting".
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by pydry on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:24AM (#26512445)
This is effectively how the US built up the industries of Japan, Taiwan and South Korea.

The reason these countries were allowed to do it where others are not was because the US wanted strategically placed powerful allies in the region.

There probably wouldn't be a Japanese electronics/car industry, for instance, if the Soviets hadn't spooked the the US in the 40s.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by jbay808 on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:50PM (#26515572)
The US built those industries only in the same sense that they built Germany's.

Japan's industrial base was built before the 40s, with an extensive domestic supply of machine tools and industrial equipment, rail infrastructure, and finished manufactured goods. Or else who do you think was building the planes, ships, and submarines that the allies were fighting on the Pacific front? Their industries were temporarily damaged by the war but it's no surprise that they'd be back to building cars within a couple decades.

They, rather than the US, were the ones who built up much of the initial industrial base of Taiwan and Korea, as part of their own colonization efforts. Not out of so much benevolence, of course.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by pydry on Friday March 19, 2021 @02:09PM (#26516568)
They weren't building walkmans or cars for export.

Their skill base was intact but their industry was razed by WW2.

Either way they needed raw materials and markets to develop their industrial base and that required favorable American trade policy, $$$ and military support.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by dominicl on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:08AM (#26512849)
I'm curious about this argument. Haven't heard the "tiger states" growth attributed solely to US policies. Any links/pointers to those advantages that were granted these states but not other developing countries at the time?
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by sct202 on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:20PM (#26515901)
I don't know about solely developed, but South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan did receive substantial amounts of foreign aid in the post-war period. In addition, some of this aid financed land reforms that forced large land owners to break up large holdings and sell to the tenant farmers who previously rented the land. The notoriously small farms in Japan are not a natural free market development.
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by Mat342 on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:57AM (#26514855)
That's absolute BS, asians are smart and hardworking, US didn't build them
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by andrepd on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:35AM (#26512537)
The point is that yes, economically strong countries can and do dictate internal policies of a sovereign nation.
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by jariel on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:59AM (#26512276)
WTO has rules, as do nations with agreements in place.

'Allow' implies some degree of forgiveness or allowance of entity on the other side of the table.

In this case, Ghana may probably face trade sanction/scrutiny for their protectionism. It will have to play out in terms of other agreements.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by luxuryballs on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:09AM (#26514196)
collusion for thee but not for me
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by grecy on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:33PM (#26515338)
> Not to pick on you, but I often hear this frasing in the 'first world' and surely you dont 'allow' or 'disallow' internal policies to an sovereign nation?

Oh, it's much simpler than that. If an undeveloped (or developing) country doesn't place nice with the "Developed" rules, the IMF will just bankrupt their currency and send them back to the dark ages.

Why do you think Switzerland is the world's 3rd biggest exporter of Coffee [1], while not growing a single bean ? .. and Germany is number 5.

The IMF doesn't let coffee growing countries like Ethiopia or the Ivory Coast export processed beans, because they want the immense profits going to developed countries. Also the WTO plays a role and just doesn't tax unprocessed raw coffee beans coming out of those poor countries, but taxes processed coffee (and chocolate) goods at astronomical rates.

[1] http://www.worldstopexports.com/coffee-exports-country/

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by pietrovismara on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:00AM (#26513400)
That's what the west does all the time.

Blackmail poor countries into selling all of their assets to foreign capital, just to gain access to foreign credit.

See what's happening in Cuba. See what Vietnam had to do after the war with the US, see Greece with Europe recently, see countless more.

The WTO, IMF and the World Bank are the colonizing arm of capitalism.

It's a relatively new form of supernational economic warfare that turned out to be very effective, especially when combined with embargoes and economic sanctions. It's the famous "offer one can't refuse".

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by Blackstone4 on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:41AM (#26513859)
The way you phrase it, makes it sound like theft...surely, they have to buy the assets and that goes to the owner...the owner then can chose to re-invest locally if they choose to...the capital doesnt just disappear...
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by pietrovismara on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:44AM (#26513900)
> the owner then can chose to re-invest locally if they choose to

Only at the conditions imposed by the IMF. Usually that means the state has to steer away from anything that could be profitable and focus only on what is not palatable to foreign capital.

It also means states can't apply import taxes, thus making their industries instantly obsolete. It's pretty much a huge transfer of wealth from inside to outside.

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by viro on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:55AM (#26514031)
> Only at the conditions imposed by the IMF. Usually that means the state has to steer away from anything that could be profitable and focus only on what is not palatable to foreign capital.

Im going to need a direct example please

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by pietrovismara on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:59AM (#26514089)
Just check the IMF page on "Conditionality"[0]. Check the "Prior actions" sections and see "Elimination of price controls" there.

Also see this video[1] about Vietnam, around halfway through it explains pretty well how it works.

Edit: I realize now you asked about the "forced privatization of industries" sentence. That's thoroughly stressed accross all IMF literature, and you can see it happen in pretty much every country that takes IMF "aid".

-[0]: https://www.imf.org/en/About/Factsheets/Sheets/2016/08/02/21...

-[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMubOw5H-yo

Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by viro on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:46AM (#26514694)
I just want to note nationalized industries have an incredibly unfair advantage over private industry. Since nationalized industries have no real need to make money at all. Widget A cost $65 to make? Nah, let's sell it at $5. Most of the fund comes from capitalist states. It wouldn't make much of sense for them to fund an economic system that is often antagonistic to capitalism.
Re:Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland by Blackstone4 on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:29AM (#26514448)
so are you mainly refering to state-owned assets rather than privately owned assets? State-owned companies are notorious for being badly run...no wonder they are overrun by foreign competition. Would it not be possible for a state to IPO these assets or give shares directly to the population rather than sell?