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Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by Crazyontap on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:43PM (#26481044)
I guess the majority of people on HN already know this more or less. The problem is still this: We still don't have good alternatives to Google's products and services.

1) Android: Google still owns all our phones. Even on rooted phones it hard to remove google services that god know send so many requests containing whatnot to the eeee addresses. Just install no-root firewall and you will be amazed the amount of pending requests that accumulate in 1 hour.

2) Google search: I guess I can manage with DDG but when it's not that straight forward search, subconciosuly I'm still thinking that let's just do a quick google search to see if i'm not missing anything. And often I find better results. While adblocks makes sure I filter most of the crap.

3) Gmail: Yes there are alternatives but switching emails is hard. It's a big commitment for most people to switch a 10 year old gmail address. And it still works great at filtering spam and whatnot.

And same for maps, youtube and all their services.They really have a big leverage on everyone.

Quiting facebook and instagram was child's play in comparison. I haven't logged in for almost an year now. Quitting google is really hard otoh.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by leokennis on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:15PM (#26482225)
There is one good argument for Google, and that is it’s free as in beer. For most people, any price over $0 is a dealbreaker.

However, assuming you’re willing to pay for privacy, switching e-mail is super easy. For example, from the Fastmail UI, you literally log in to your Google account and all your mail is transferred to Fastmail.

Switching to DDG? It’s 95% as good.

Switching to Apple Maps or OSM? It’s 95% as good.

Google Drive? There are 100 competitors.

There is one site you cannot do without, and that is YouTube. Everything else from Google can easily be ditched, the only two things in your way could be a reluctance to pay money and a slight feeling of unease at having to get used to something else.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by e40 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:42PM (#26482654)
Switching to DDG? It’s 95% as good.

I would say for personal stuff (ie, non-programming) it is. For programming, I continually have to switch back to google. DDG is way worse for me. Maybe it's just me, but the types of things I search for just don't work on DDG and I've wasted way too much of my time looking for answers using DDG, only to find them quickly with Google. It totally frustrates me, because I would much rather use DDG.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by koheripbal on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:59AM (#26490470)
Even for personal searches, I find myself using the g! operator in DDG about 50% of the time to find what I'm looking for.

Critical operators like "site:" are not available in DDG.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by lensi on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:28PM (#26498075)
"site:" is definitely available in ddg and has been for a long time
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by roryokane on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:32PM (#26499192)
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by abandonliberty on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:44PM (#26482690)
> any price over $0 is a dealbreaker.

The user pays for Google in the end, just not consensually. It's a closed loop. All the money ultimately comes from the users. Product or politics, all advertisers are expecting to get some return.

Unfortunately it's in human nature to not want to pay. Search needs to be a utility that we all fund to make it the best tool for society.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by paxys on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:43PM (#26483453)
> All the money ultimately comes from the users.

All the money comes from some of the users. Sure Google is collecting everyone's data, but in the end the vast majority of it is worthless. I'd be surprised if even 1% of users are profitable for the ecosystem. The tiny minority clicking on ads and buying products is subsidizing everyone else.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by Bancakes on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @04:00AM (#26487789)
Software is free to make. Why would you ever pay for software when there are free alternatives?
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by donaldo on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:26PM (#26483231)
Are we talking about the same Google? I don’t remember them taking money without my consent.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by LinuxBender on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:38AM (#26491853)
That is the genius of the design. The trick is, you give millions of people "free" email. Scraping emails aside, the real money comes from anyone that "needs" to email a large number of gmail/yahoo users. So if I am a business owner and 30% of my customers are using yahoo and 50% are using gmail and I have a lot of customers, the volume of email I will be sending to those companies is rather large. After a point I will have to buy into a whitelist/approve-list to get around throttling or being flagged as a spammer. Google/Yahoo don't know that you are my customer after all, so they have to prevent actual abuse of their system given the massive number of email accounts they host.

So I have to recoup that cost. I pass that cost onto all of my customers by mixing it into the cost of goods and services. If you buy things from me, even if you are not a subscriber to google/yahoo, you have in effect paid for those services. This is somewhat invisible to the people with those email addresses but does actually affect them, if only a little bit.

Google would tell you that you can simply start with a low volume and ramp up slowly. In reality this is simply not practical for most businesses. This gets into discussions around queue-per-domain management and rate-limit-per-domain, but quickly falls apart when you have to notify a large number of your customers on a time sensitive transaction that is out-of-band from their web browsing experience. A modern work around is to have a cell phone application for notifications rather than email assuming you let your own customers choose that over smtp in their profile. Another work around is to use an email campaign provider that already pays into the whitelists, but then I have to give your email address to a potentially shady company that may cross-sell / cross-market to you.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by CivBase on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:05PM (#26482962)
I switched to DDG and ProtonMail with very little effort, even after using multiple GMail accounts for well over a decade. I occasionally retry searches on Google if the DDG results aren't good enough, but Google rarely finds anything DDG can't.

Android has proven much more difficult to drop, although I'm hopeful that Librem and PinePhone are paving the way for an eventual alternative. I'm still using Android for now, but I at least try to source my apps from F-Droid instead of the Google Play Store.

Maps and YouTube have been a little difficult. I'm trying to use OsmAnd on my phone, but I still find myself going to Google Maps somewhat frequently. I've replaced the YouTube app on my phone with NewPipe and I try to watch content on alternative platforms when possible, but there's a lot of stuff posted exclusively on YouTube.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by blaser-waffle on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:40AM (#26491056)
> I switched to DDG and ProtonMail with very little effort, even after using multiple GMail accounts for well over a decade. I occasionally retry searches on Google if the DDG results aren't good enough, but Google rarely finds anything DDG can't.

Same. Paid Protonmail was quick and easy to get my domains working, and DDG works 90% of the time. I occasionally have to throw things to Bing or Google but DDG is pretty good.

For any readers I strongly recommend buying a domain name and then trucking it to whatever email provider you want. Jonny-C-Doe.com let's you keep the same front end name while changing the back end if, say, you don't like protonmail.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by martincmartin on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @02:48PM (#26481131)
Google Maps has the wrong street names near me, so I looked for something from OpenStreetMap. But there's nothing that works with Android Auto. In fact, there are only two Android Auto navigation apps, Google Maps and Waze. Both owned by Google, and Waze seems happy to send me through the most confusing intersections if it thinks it will save 5 seconds of driving time.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by valiant55 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:52PM (#26481981)
I've submitted multiple corrections to Google Maps and all of them eventually were fixed. I even got a same day response one time, with the longest taking about 3 weeks. I haven't made any corrections recently. Have you attempted to submit feedback on the Maps site?
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by seaman1921 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:10PM (#26482165)
+1 ... rather than complaining about it, leverage the editing functionality provided in there to make the maps better for everyone.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by bjornstar on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @12:54AM (#26486709)
As counter anecdata, I've reported a concrete coatings company claiming to be inside of a post office. I've reported it several times over the course of several months and nothing has happened. See for yourself: https://goo.gl/maps/LvAZXpSJgURoUqYk8

And with the blackhole that is Google support, what's the point in feeding the beast? We're all better off using Open Street Map and not rewarding Google for their poor behavior.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by valiant55 on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @02:02PM (#26494771)
Their website lists their address as a PO box which is probably causing problems. Some automated process added the business to Maps and the only solution might be for the business to take action and claim the listing on maps and update it.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by jakecopp on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @08:59PM (#26485286)
OsmAnd (open source) [1] is working on it! [2] Here's the Github Issue [3].

[1]: https://osmand.net/

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/OsmAnd/comments/l17r3l/any_updates_...

[3]: https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues/3391

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by habi on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @06:54PM (#26497808)
Have you tried https://www.magicearth.com? I’m using it on iOS where it supports Car Play. From a quick search it seems to me that it also supports Android Auto.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by bozzcl on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @06:42PM (#26484180)
Android Auto was the biggest pain for me. I tried /e/OS, but for the life of me I couldn't get AA to work with MicroG.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by karinakarina on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:41PM (#26482637)
For search: Use Startpage - gives you Google results with privacy.

For email: Most people have multiple emails - work, school, personal, from the early 2000s. It's not out of this world to switch to an encrypted email service.

Android: Never used it because I like iPhone. And, iPhone is a pretty great alternative to Android - definitely more private. But isn't there GrapheneOS and LineageOS?

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by Isthatablackgsd on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:03PM (#26482935)
> For search: Use Startpage - gives you Google results with privacy.

FYI, Ads company brought up Startpage. Despite their public statement with privacy for Startpage, I don't trust them since they can 180 it without any repercussion.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by karinakarina on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:09PM (#26483014)
(Startpage employee) Privacy policy hasn't changed and that's legally binding.

"Marketing messages can claim almost anything, but a privacy policy has legal status." - Robert E.G. Beens, Startpage CEO and Co-founder

If you have questions, let me know.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by Bancakes on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @04:01AM (#26487799)
Yes, are you aware billion dollar corporations get away with leaking terabytes of information, so a smalltime ad company will get away with leaking data over time? Are you aware someone has to manually pursue startpage?

If I can't ssh into their servers and have a look-see or run my own instance, then their claims are unverifiable.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by karinakarina on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @01:04PM (#26493949)
You're completely right, Big Tech gets away with a lot - including collecting/selling a ton of data to make profit. That's because their revenue model is based on behavioral advertising. For Startpage it's always been based on contextual advertising. And, you don't need personal data for that.

And, it happens that System1 is interested in "capturing" that revenue from contextual advertising.

"System1 is interested in Startpage's ad revenue, not its data," the company said. "The reason a company like System1 openly owns other search engines and consumer tech products like Info.com and Mapquest is that they want to capture that ad revenue that is slowly shifting to private search engines. There has been a steady increase in people using private search engines and therefore a steady increase in their revenue. It is a growing market that they feel will continue to thrive and grow." (https://www.computing.co.uk/news/4017337/privacy-focused-sea...)

That being said: At the end of the day, it all comes back to trust. Even with OSS, you have to trust that they won't change the code. And, you should use products that you trust to best protect your privacy.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by Bancakes on Thursday March 18, 2021 @06:03AM (#26501097)
You really like to shill startpage for some reason despite a search engine needing 0 advertisements?
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by karinakarina on Thursday March 18, 2021 @11:56AM (#26503991)
As mentioned above - I'm a Startpage employee. I know quite a bit about the subject so I jump in when it comes up.

Advertising on a search engine is main form of revenue > pays employees > updates > keeps current users and gets new users. You could make the argument for crowd sourcing, but it doesn't always work.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by Bancakes on Thursday March 18, 2021 @12:58PM (#26504764)
Interesting. I'm happy startpage gets revenue, whatever it is. I think I'll keep using ddg and a searx instance.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by upofadown on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @06:33PM (#26484093)
Switching from Gmail is basically zero effort. You configure Gmail to forward all your email to the new account. Done.

Email is generically really great in this regard. Very little lockin.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by paulcapewell on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @03:22AM (#26487590)
This is true but I think the point is about not having your email touch Google's servers - forwarding from your Gmail account means Google still gets to see your incoming email.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by koheripbal on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:01AM (#26490494)
Spam filtering is the reason I use Gmail and set it up for my family.

I hate filtering spam, but it's outright dangerous to not have an effective spam/malware filter for my parents and children.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by tarsinge on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @06:06PM (#26483802)
Switching email is the easiest, because service level is similar elsewhere. The migration just take a long time, but keeping the legacy gmail in parallel of the new account is not too bothersome. It's also a great occasion to use your own domain, so a future switch to another hosting is even easier.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by MeinBlutIstBlau on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @03:24PM (#26481608)
YouTube alone has been a wonder of the world quite honestly.
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by bozzcl on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @06:40PM (#26484162)
Here's what I did for each point:

Android: iPhone. I don't know if I trust Apple more than Google, but at least on the surface level our interests align better. Might try a Librem 5 or Google-less Android in the future.

Google search: DDG. Agreed with your points there, sometimes it's tempting to go back to Google.

Gmail: Hey.com commercial account, plus a custom domain and individual aliases for each service I give my email address to. That helps with portability somewhat, in the future at least.

Maps: Apple Maps has been pretty nice. Might give OpenStreetMap a try.

YouTube: Invidious.

Android Auto: Apple Car Play. I wish there were a better option that didn't depend on Apple.

Google Drive: OneDrive, but I'm looking for alternatives.

Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by afiori on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @04:07AM (#26487832)
What is a "eeee addresses"?
Re:Google finally revealed how much personal data they colle... by ssss11 on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:40PM (#26482614)
Also Chrome/Chromium.