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Re:The Waste of Daylight by tptacek on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:48PM (#26461728)
The opposing case is stronger: you can't just change the school schedule, because school is part of the fabric of child care; change its schedule, and you change the schedules of parents, which means now you have a coordination problem. That problem ripples, so that by the time you've really addressed it, you've essentially recapitulated daylight savings time.

Accidents aside, there's a lot to be said for not having the first 45 minutes of the school day take place in the dark in places like western Michigan, or for having sunrise occur 3-4 hours before people normally wake up in the summer.

Josh Barro is fond of pointing out that this --- eliminating DST --- was tried in the early 1970s, and the 2-year experiment was so universally reviled in practice that it was repealed almost unanimously in Congress just 9 months later.

Re:The Waste of Daylight by pxeboot on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:23PM (#26461943)
It's not like we have a national school schedule. There are already 1-2 hour differences in school start times, sometimes just a few miles away.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by wyattpeak on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:36PM (#26462011)
The issue isn't universality but consistency. It doesn't matter to person A how person B gets their kids to school, what matters is that person A doesn't need a different system for half the year.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by Rule35 on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:20AM (#26462594)
So everyone in the world changing their clocks is easier than having a summer schedule at a business where they open one hour earlier?

Many businesses have different schedules on the weekend, I think people could cope with summer hours. Especially since they already do - even with the time change many businesses are open longer.

For something so unpopular, how do places that don't do the time change get by? Why isn't Saskatchewan in a permanent rage-fueled civil war?

Re:The Waste of Daylight by tptacek on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:37AM (#26462676)
So everyone in the world changing their clocks is easier than having a summer schedule at a business where they open one hour earlier?

Yes.

Re:The Waste of Daylight by Rule35 on Monday March 15, 2021 @01:23AM (#26462869)
No. My local swimming pool disagrees. Saskatchewan disagrees.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by TylerE on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:34PM (#26462001)
Hawaii and Arizona have done without the time change for over 50 years.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by stopping on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:50PM (#26462108)
AZ and Hawaii experience ranges of [10-14 hours] and [11-13.5 hours] of daylight across the whole year, respectively. More southern latitudes can get away with not shifting their clocks because the daylight variance is much smaller. In AZ, sunrise varies from 5:15AM to 7:25AM. In Seattle, without DST, it would range from 4:11AM to 7:57AM. If we use "civil twilight" (bright enough for outdoor activities), Seattle would start experiencing daylight at 3:30AM in mid-summer.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by toast0 on Monday March 15, 2021 @04:29AM (#26463663)
Having 16 hours of sunlight in the summer means the sun is going to be up too early. Both 3:30 am and 4:30 am are way too early for the sun, but such is life. Either way, the sun is up well into the evening, so it's not as if much changed with an hour moved. Except the sleep disturbance; for some, it's no big deal; for others it takes weeks to recover.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by _Microft on Monday March 15, 2021 @04:18AM (#26463615)
Here is a reference point for Europeans: Seattle is at the same latitude as the southern border of Germany.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by tptacek on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:44PM (#26462059)
Where do most people in AZ live relative to their time zone? I wonder how apparent these issues are to people in DC; they're very apparent in places like Michigan, on the edge of their time zone; you drive for an hour outside of Chicago and it's weird how long the sun is suddenly up.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by TylerE on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:46PM (#26462079)
The state pretty much spans the width of mountain time. It's pretty large geographically, almost 350 miles across.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by Dylan16807 on Monday March 15, 2021 @04:56AM (#26463806)
> there's a lot to be said for not having the first 45 minutes of the school day take place in the dark

Is there?

There's something to be said for the walk to school, for those that actually walk.

And there's also something to be said for having sunlight while waking up, with the huge caveat that the current DST system does not accomplish this.

But once they're at school? Why does it matter if it's dark outside during first period?

Re:The Waste of Daylight by chillwaves on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:11PM (#26461871)
Let the children start later. Let the parents start later and have a shorter work day. Problem solved.
Re:The Waste of Daylight by tptacek on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:14PM (#26461887)
A huge fraction of the US workforce, spread throughout every industry, consists of parents. It sounds easy to say "let the parents start later", but it's a massive coordination problem. It makes more sense if you assume the whole workforce works the way it does for most of us on HN, but in most jobs, you actually have to show up on time; if you can't, someone else has to be scheduled to account for your missing hour.

The only way I think you can make DST abolition make sense is if you say "well, I guess kids are going to be at school in the dark at 9AM in a bunch of places around the country". That's a coherent argument! But "parents and workplaces will just figure it out" is, I think, not.

Re:The Waste of Daylight by watwut on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:10AM (#26463883)
> Let the children start later. Let the parents start later and have a shorter work day. Problem solved.

What would actually happened would that that women and some guys would be penalized in the workplace and ... that would be it.