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Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by api on Saturday March 06, 2021 @08:56PM (#26372426)
Allowing new housing to be built to satisfy demand.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by mikeg8 on Saturday March 06, 2021 @08:59PM (#26372448)
SF is surrounded by water on 3 sides. Where do you propose all these new houses be built?
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by alexhutcheson on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:06PM (#26372486)
Maybe one of SF’s tech companies can invent a technology that would allow housing to be stacked vertically.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by koolba on Saturday March 06, 2021 @11:11PM (#26373068)
I think it’s more likely that they end up with floating apartments, likely in shipping containers, parked just outside the city’s legal limits.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by imtringued on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:25AM (#26375670)
If SF land is so valuable why not just build more of it?
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by koolba on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:31AM (#26375696)
Same reason you can’t build houses on land you already own. They won’t let you.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by Vaslo on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:12PM (#26372513)
Cmon - they are just too busy trying to steal more of my data
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by sampo on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:14PM (#26372520)
> Where do you propose all these new houses be built?

That's your problem right there, when you write "houses". Cities need apartment buildings, which allow more homes per same area than single family houses.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by csa on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:10PM (#26372500)
> SF is surrounded by water on 3 sides. Where do you propose all these new houses be built?

Up seems to be the obvious answer.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by mrfusion on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:32PM (#26372596)
Building islands would be cool too. Didn’t Dubiai (sp) do that?
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by nradov on Saturday March 06, 2021 @10:52PM (#26372986)
Let's please not wreck the San Francisco Bay with artificial islands.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by mushbino on Saturday March 06, 2021 @11:35PM (#26373171)
You mean more artificial islands built on landfill.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by cj on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:07PM (#26372488)
New construction can replace old construction. In theory.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by stjohnswarts on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:24PM (#26381117)
Let builders tear down old buildings and single dwelling house and build up and denser. NIMBYism prevents this currently because people want to "keep the feel" of the area. Well that's impossible. Things always change, you can't go back, you can only delay and price yourself out of your own house. At least most get to sell at a good profit.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by mrkstu on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:17PM (#26372535)
Vertically.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by tomcam on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:41PM (#26372640)
What did Hong Kong do?
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jariel on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:37PM (#26372620)
"Allowing new housing to be built to satisfy demand."

No they don't.

Switzerland is one of the most conservative places on Earth, at least culturally, and they have super strict rules on what you can build.

The issue has little to do with NIMBYISM really. SF is a relatively popular destination, it's going to be really, really hard to keep people on the very bottom end of the scale in housing there.

Vancouver 'built built built' and didn't make a dent in affordability - just the opposite, it's one of the most unnafordable places on earth.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by imtringued on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:15AM (#26375608)
>Switzerland is one of the most conservative places on Earth, at least culturally, and they have super strict rules on what you can build.

It doesn't matter what gets built, just that it gets built and that everyone gets a place to live in.

>The issue has little to do with NIMBYISM really. SF is a relatively popular destination, it's going to be really, really hard to keep people on the very bottom end of the scale in housing there.

If its a population destination and the rest of the country isn't then why would we tell people that they shouldn't come here? What about all those poor people who wouldn't be poor in SF?

>Vancouver 'built built built' and didn't make a dent in affordability - just the opposite, it's one of the most unnafordable places on earth.

Pretty much everyone I have heard talk about Vancouer is that Vancouver failed to build enough housing.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jariel on Sunday March 07, 2021 @04:45PM (#26380070)
"It doesn't matter what gets built, just that it gets built and that everyone gets a place to live in"

This makes no sense.

? People who live in SF (or any community) are already housed in SF. 'Everyone' already has a place to live.

Unless by 'everyone' you mean 'everyone who wants to live there', which is absurd, because if cost were not part of the equation probably 50x the number of people in SF would not mind being there.

That's why we have suppl and demand.

"why would we tell people that they shouldn't come here? "

This is really baffling. You do realize that if SF when from 600K people to 5M people (vertical, like HK or Vancouver) that it would be a completely different kind of city, and wouldn't resemble the current SF in any way?

Nobody has a right to live anywhere.

Every community has a right to influence the future of their own community.

If SF residents want to 'go vertical' that's fine, if they don't that's fine as well.

"Pretty much everyone I have heard talk about Vancouer is that Vancouver failed to build enough housing."

'Hearsay' (i.e. some random people said some stuff about an issue) does not help your argument.

The facts are 1) Vancouver built out massively. You can see the city skyline has been totally transformed and 2) it's still completely unnafordable.

Why is it unnafordable? Because of demand from foreign places and ultra low interest rates. Local salaries are not enough to supply that kind of demand. A lot of people moving in from foreign places (or just buying). For a variety of reasons.

As a 'global safe zone' the demand is massive, far more so than the locals can endure.

In this specific case, the problem is not 'build more' - the problem is 'don't allow foreign ownership', 'get interest rates under control' and 'reduce migration to normal levels' (Canada always has higher than normal migration, that's fine, but the amounts set lately are massive and most migrants prefer cities, putting additional pressures).

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jeffbee on Saturday March 06, 2021 @09:49PM (#26372694)
To say that Vancouver built built built requires an ignorance of historical building rates. Vancouver, like the American west coast cities, severely underbuilt for decades and only recently returned to historical average rate of home building, which does not help address the accumulated deficit. For example in 2009 the whole city only built 9000 new homes, which is 1/3rd the average historical per-capita rate.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jariel on Saturday March 06, 2021 @10:02PM (#26372753)
"severely underbuilt for decades "

First - there is no such thing as 'under built'.

A community can house as many people as it houses - and that's that.

There can be an 'amount of new development relative to other places' - but not without a massive dose of 'housing ideology' can you say how much is over or under.

Second, the notion that 'there was less building for decades and then a lot of building, but not enough to catch up' doesn't really make sense, because even with an ideological view of 'how much is correct' there can be no such thing as 'pent up unfulfilled demand from previous building'. There are not a bunch of people living in Calgary or Seattle 'waiting' for the opportunity if only affordability was there.

Plenty of places in the world are 'more expensive' than neighbouring regions and yet don't 'build out quickly'.

Lastly, and most importantly, Vancouver has built up quite dramatically over the last two decades, and even as it has done this, affordability has plummeted.

The problem with 'NIMBYism and Housing' is the degree to which that position is ideological and that people don't recognize it as such.

There is no such thing as 'over/under' building for any specific community, there is only such a thing relative to net demand in nation for example that is either growing or shrinking for natural reasons or migration.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jeffbee on Saturday March 06, 2021 @10:04PM (#26372760)
> First - there is no such thing as 'under built'.

Yes, there is. In a regime of rapidly increasing life expectancy, there is a demographic certainty of future housing needs.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jariel on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:45PM (#26381236)
??? Life expectancy, birth rates, net migration are the factors of an overall nation, not not of any city.

Nobody has been able to put forth a single reasonable argument for why SF must tear down their homes and put up apartment buildings other that 'because it should'.

And FYI there is no housing shortage in the US overall, there never has been, housing has expanded commensurate with population.

Not only that - housing is relatively cheap in the US.

Of course there is a lot of demand to live in SF vis-a-vis Sacramento, there always will be, but otherwise, there isn't any reason to build a single home unless the residents want that.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jeffbee on Sunday March 07, 2021 @09:10PM (#26381710)
I guess we’re just going to disagree there. In my view it is completely immoral to give birth to people but not build them a place to live. It is as immoral as suggesting that people should leave their city upon retirement, and for the same reason.
Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jariel on Monday March 08, 2021 @12:52AM (#26382662)
"It is completely immoral to give birth to people but not build them a place to live."

If you mean to say 'people have a moral right to live in the city they were born in' - fair enough - but this notion falls apart instantly unless you want to somehow give 'born and raised SF' kids some kind of literal non-market advantage.

If you live in an 'expensive place' then your kids can live there, as long as they are wealthy enough, that's the cost of living in a wealthy place and there's no way around it.

By 'building more to facilitate affordability' - well that certainly would enable more people to live there, but the demand will come from all over not just 'the kids of'.

SF is a small city and it's expensive, if parents want their kids to live there they can literally give them their homes. Otherwise, their kids can get good jobs or live in Santa Rosa.

There is plenty of space in North Cal.

Finally, SF residents can make up their own minds about how they want to do it. More building, less building, it's entirely up to them and nobody else's business.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by ActorNightly on Sunday March 07, 2021 @12:09AM (#26373329)
My question is did they build houses or apartments?

Because building houses generally does nothing for prices. Zoning for managed apartments is the best way to increase the housing supply.

Re:Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are le... by jariel on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:47PM (#26381247)
The build massive numbers of apartment buildings that totally changed the nature of the city. And it's still unaffordable.