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Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by ch_123 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:54AM (#26316587)
Quite likely a radiation hardened variant, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750

The CPUs used in space applications typically lag ~20 years behind the consumer market due to the need to be very sure that the kinks have been ironed out, and the need to produce variants that can withstand the environmental conditions outside earth's atmosphere.

EDIT: Also worth pointing out - the price of one of these specialized chips is in the six digits, due to the higher tolerances and low production volumes.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by avianlyric on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @12:45PM (#26317990)
Also worth mentioning that chips from 20 years ago are built on old fabrication technology, with ginormous transistor sizes (compared to modern CPUs). The RAD750 has a 150nm to 250nm minimum feature sizes, a Ryzen Zen 3 chip has a feature size of 7nm, two orders of magnitude smaller!

Feature size is super important in radiation exposed environments because resistance to bit flips from a stray proton (or other charged particles flying around in space) is inversely proportional to the size of your transistors. So small transistors mean they’re more likely to be activated by stray charged particles causing all kinds of interesting and exciting problems (which you don’t want to be debugging from one end of a 12 light minute comms channel).

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mlyle on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @01:20PM (#26318483)
> The RAD750 has a 150nm to 250nm minimum feature sizes, a Ryzen Zen 3 chip has a feature size of 7nm,

Yup. And while the transistor sizes haven't really shrunk by the 35x that this suggests, they've still shrunk by a lot. And, of course, the area has shrunk by this amount squared.

> causing all kinds of interesting and exciting problems

Sometimes super exciting. Latchup can turn the whole package into a white-hot parasitic transistor connecting Vcore to ground at low impedance. Rad-hard variants can largely eliminate this possibility.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by jandrese on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:11PM (#26320814)
This does make one wonder about an architecture that has 4 or more identical processors hooked up to the same inputs and two watchdogs watching them (and each other). If any processor starts disagreeing with the rest it is instantly reset. If any processor starts to draw too much or too little current it is reset. If either watchdog stops responding to the other it is reset.

Keeping the working data synchronized would be the real trick. One could imagine all of these CPUs are hooked to a single bank of redundant and ECC stabilized memory, and all access goes through the watchdog processes which will only let through the ones that are in agreement.

The end result could be a system that is lighter and faster than the traditional RAD hardened system simply because it's built on a smaller process. The downside is the enormous complexity of the watchdog systems, they would be very expensive to get right. Also, synchronization is one of the hardest problems in computer science. It's basically cache invalidation on steroids.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mlyle on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:34PM (#26321158)
> This does make one wonder about an architecture that has 4 or more identical processors hooked up to the same inputs and two watchdogs watching them (and each other). If any processor starts disagreeing with the rest it is instantly reset. If any processor starts to draw too much or too little current it is reset. If either watchdog stops responding to the other it is reset.

This is a common set of techniques in critical systems. The smallsat built by students that I mentored didn't have voting, but it had processors with moderately sophisticated watchdogs performing mutual-power-monitoring and simple hardware failsafes. Aerospace control systems often run in lockstep and have voting, etc.

> Keeping the working data synchronized would be the real trick. One could imagine all of these CPUs are hooked to a single bank of redundant and ECC stabilized memory, and all access goes through the watchdog processes which will only let through the ones that are in agreement.

Typically you make the memory redundant too, and just ensure that input and outputs are common and all code is deterministic. e.g. There's Tandem / HP NonStop which use these techniques.

> The end result could be a system that is lighter and faster than the traditional RAD hardened system simply because it's built on a smaller process.

Handling upsets by voting makes a lot of sense. But radiation can cause permanent damage of small geometry circuits. And even with fast mechanisms to crowbar power in the event of a latchup, you're not really sure that you'll save the day.

It's a great way to handle things on the cheap for cutting edge payloads and research projects, though.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mech422 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:55PM (#26321485)
>>Typically you make the memory redundant too, and just ensure that input and outputs are common and all code is deterministic. e.g. There's Tandem / HP NonStop which use these techniques.

Tandem was software fault tolerant - the Stratus machines were fully hardware fault tolerant and ran code in parallel on seperate logical cpus to test for faults. Truly neat machines. Also, it was a PL/1 based machine - even the OS.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mlyle on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @05:17PM (#26321810)
Yes, you're right. Turns out this doesn't apply to all of NonStop. I was thinking of Tandem NonStop CLX which my brother worked on and was lockstepped.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mech422 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:51PM (#26321408)
This is rather like how the old Stratus super mini's worked..

12(?) Motorola 68K chips were wired into multiple 'logical' cpu's, and programs executed in parallel on each. If a discrepancy arose, majority won and 'wrong' logical cpu's were taken out of service. It would also automatically call Stratus's remote service, report the failure and order a replacement board :-)

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by Florin_Andrei on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @03:41PM (#26320338)
> a white-hot parasitic transistor connecting Vcore to ground at low impedance

In plain English: an internal short-circuit.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by zelon88 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:06PM (#26324235)
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by wtallis on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:34PM (#26319428)
If we compare the RAD750 against the 5nm Apple A1, the newer chip has about 1660 times as many transistors per mm^2. Minimum feature size (ie. line widths) may not have kept pace with the nanometer-based fab node names, but transistor sizes definitely have.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mlyle on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:44PM (#26321304)
Eh. Don't compare the RAD 750. It's better to compare something that's not domain specific and rad hard.

Compare the PPC 740, which was ~300,000 transistors/mm^2 at 260nm. Apple M1 is ~130,000,000 transistors/mm^2 at 5nm. (260/5)^2 =~ 2700x, but the actual difference is ~430x.

So it's not as bad as line widths, but it still isn't quite keeping pace.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by AmericanChopper on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:20PM (#26320933)
> a Ryzen Zen 3 chip has a feature size of 7nm

The node sizes used in marketing today haven't actually had any relation to feature size for at least 10 years. You can read some of the actual feature details for 7nm on wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_nm_process#7_nm_process_node...

If "feature size" is the width of a fin, a 7nm feature will typically be ~15nm across and spaced ~15nm apart (ie the center of one transistor is 30nm away from the center of the transistor next to it).

It's worth noting that the actual thickness of a transistor isn't strictly the most important factor. Which is why that wiki page shows fin pitch (the width of the transistor plus the space between transistors), because that's the metric that you get transistor density from.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by DrBazza on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:28AM (#26317024)
> The CPUs used in space applications typically lag ~20 years

This. Worked in physics department in the 90s that built satellites, and all the chips were late 70s or early 80s chips. Programming them was "fun".

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by jvanderbot on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:53AM (#26317321)
Fun fact, a friend of mine bought and old mac, installed linux, and used it to do profiling for some code he wanted to fly. Great way to quickly find the problem areas!

Those old macs run Ubuntu just fine :)

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by timw4mail on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @01:30PM (#26318609)
An old version anyway. I think 2014.4 or around there was the last PPC version of ubuntu.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by trasz on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:34PM (#26319427)
Up-to-date FreeBSD should run just fine, though.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by boogies on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @07:51PM (#26323337)
Or more Ubuntu-like, Debian (in fact IIUC they just recently added support for ppc64, as it’s only in unstable while ppc64el is in stable).
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by ooOOoo on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @12:26PM (#26317765)
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by Demonsult on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @03:32PM (#26320235)
Many of my clients in aerospace are still designing in PPC parts in 2021.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by quercusa on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @12:01PM (#26317432)
Once you have a rad-hard CPU, what do you do for the RAM, some super ECC?
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:44PM (#26319567)
There are memories available in shielded packages. SRAM is used wherever possible. Some of the rad hard micros have on board ECC, others don't and you'd have to spin your own with an ASIC or FPGA or have another mitigation strategy.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by wmf on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:59PM (#26319784)
If RAD750 came out in 2001 that means it was only ~5 years behind. Which raises the question of why isn't there a RAD-A72 now.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by foobarian on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:38PM (#26321220)
Aren't these Motorola-lineage architectures specifically good at doing lockstep computation? I.e. there are a bunch processors executing identical instructions and comparing the outputs?
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by mech422 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:56PM (#26321514)
The moto 68K was used in this fashion in the Stratus Super Mini's.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by plutonorm on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:14AM (#26316842)
Crazy. Just put 10 complete systems in some radiation shielding.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by scottLobster on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:23AM (#26316959)
We're talking launching stuff into space, every kg of extra weight is critical, particularly for scientific missions that are trying to do as much as possible. Also no amount of radiation shielding is going to make you perfectly shielded from cosmic rays.

It's actually a chronic problem with Voyagers 1/2. The teams that maintain them regularly experience weird, unplanned behavior because a cosmic ray bit-flipped some register or other, and then they have to manually figure out what erroneous command got executed and how to recover from it, and those are extremely simple systems compared to what's running on Perseverance.

So yeah, you need radiation hardened parts in space or you're just begging for a dead probe.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by pklausler on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:49PM (#26319636)
There are three computer systems on each Voyager. They are dedicated to specific tasks (Flight Control System, Attitude and Articulation Control System, and Computer Command Subsystem), each with two instances for redundancy.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by scottLobster on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:29PM (#26321075)
Right, but that redundancy to my understanding is in case of component/system failure. It's a backup, not a judge-actor or error-correcting architecture.

Case in point: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/engineers-diagnosing-voyager-2...

"Engineers successfully reset a computer onboard Voyager 2 that caused an unexpected data pattern shift, and the spacecraft resumed sending properly formatted science data back to Earth on Sunday, May 23. Mission managers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., had been operating the spacecraft in engineering mode since May 6. They took this action as they traced the source of the pattern shift to the flip of a single bit in the flight data system computer that packages data to transmit back to Earth. In the next week, engineers will be checking the science data with Voyager team scientists to make sure instruments onboard the spacecraft are processing data correctly. "

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by myrandomcomment on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:22AM (#26316943)
Which is more weight.

The single highest factor in all space design is cost per kg lifted. The only thing that is more costly - lifting it successfully and then having it break.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by wlesieutre on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:25AM (#26316982)
For a rover it's not just lifting it, you have to put it back down once it gets to Mars. That's a 3-stage process with the aeroshell, parachute, and powered descent.

Heavier rover? You'll need more fuel for the skycrane's engines. And that fuel adds weight, so don't forget that you'll need more fuel to lift the extra fuel.

Now your rover and skycrane are bigger and heavier. Do you need a bigger parachute? Does everything still fit in the aeroshell? Is the fuel capacity for orienting and stabilizing the aeroshell still sufficient with the increased mass?

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by plutonorm on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @06:58PM (#26322954)
The board in my phone is less than 100g. That's 1kg for ten of them.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by colejohnson66 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @06:44AM (#26327172)
You’re assuming these computers are the size of a mobile phone
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by retSava on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:33AM (#26317080)
It's not just the weight, there's also the complexity of handling 10 (or whatever) systems. It's not always easy to know when a system fails. How can you be sure that the output is invalid?

Detecting complete blackouts is fairly easy, after a while when a watchdog tickle is absent for too long, but bad output due to flipped memory? Consensus-style systems can be used, but they are also a complexity in itself, and the point here was to replace a hardened single point of failure with redundancy.

Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by moftz on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:50PM (#26319667)
There is also a time-domain problem with regards to total integrated dose. All the parts will degrade over time. Radiation hardened parts can have lives of 15 years or more in a GEO environment. A commercial part might be lucky to make it 1 year. Radiation shielding is not as easy as you may think. Heavy ions in space can pass through anything and will impart a charge in whatever they hit as well as creating secondary sources of radiation. Neutrons are not as common in space but can be found near reactors, they are also very penetrating.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by Rebelgecko on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:27PM (#26324365)
Not all radiation problems can be solved by rebooting/voting/watchdogging. Over time the hardware itself will die.
Re:Perseverance rover uses same PowerPC chipset found in 199... by iancmceachern on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:19AM (#26316903)
Too heavy