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Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by 908B64B197 on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:22PM (#26281025)
I recall an AI playing a game that, just before losing, would press the "menu" button to pause the game and then stop doing anything. It fulfilled it's goal (not lose). That behavior should set expectations when it comes to AI.

Also, am-I the only one that thinks this whole "chat bot having a natural conversation to book an appointment" is useless when a simple date-picker would do?

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by tzs on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:41PM (#26281569)
Another fun one is when the programmers accidentally give the AI the wrong goal.

I have no idea if this actually happened, but I've heard of a chess program that was playing in a tournament that started making really weird moves in the endgame. Before that point, it was playing excellently.

It took the developers a while to figure out what was going on. They had made a mistake when doing some last minute tweaks before the tournament, and in effect the program was playing to lose.

Think about that for a minute. At first you might think losing would be easy. Just don't defend against your opponent's attacks, and make moves that weaken your position to make it even easier for the opponent.

But wait...the mistake in the code applied to the program's evaluation of both its own moves and the opponent's possible moves. In other words the program assumed that the opponent was also playing to lose.

How do you play to lose a game of chess if your opponent also wants to lose? You need to get to a position where the only legal move of the opponent is to checkmate you.

You'll want a position where you have a big material advantage, and all the opponent has is their king and enough material to mate you. Probably just king and queen. Then you'd need to keep putting them in check, in such a way that they have to block with the queen. You'd need to arrange a series of such checks and blocks so that the final block also delivers checkmate on you.

And so it turns out that during the opening and middle game, playing to lose against someone who is also playing to lose looks pretty much the same as playing to win against someone who is also playing to win.

(Personally, I doubt this actually happened. The story is old, and I don't think chess programs would have been able to see far enough ahead for them to discover that getting an overwhelming position is the way to force the opponent to checkmate them).

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by blahedo on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:01PM (#26281688)
> (Personally, I doubt this actually happened. The story is old, and I don't think chess programs would have been able to see far enough ahead for them to discover that getting an overwhelming position is the way to force the opponent to checkmate them).

True, but (in the traditional minimax-alpha-beta-classic-gameplay model) you're using heuristics anyway up until you're in spitting distance of the end, and it seems plausible that if this "tweak" involved something like negating something and flipping a less-than sign (or whatever) that the heuristics were evaluating correctly but the end game evaluations were backwards. (Which contradicts the explanation but not the overall story.)

It's also possible that the explanation does work even with a backwards heuristic: in the try-to-win version, I'll eliminate or downgrade one branch because my only success route would be if the opponent directly manouvres themselves to be captured, which they obviously wouldn't do; but in the try-to-lose version, I might eliminate the same branch because I expect the opponent would do that but I don't want that to happen. I can't quite fully work out the logic in my head but it seems plausible.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:23PM (#26282101)
I'd believe it. I had a similar bug in a minimax AI I made to play Hive. I had messed up the game-end valuation in such a way that the AI basically valued winning less than anything but outright losing. It would play a perfectly normal and competent game right up until the end, at which point it would try its hardest to draw out the game indefinitely, usually by forcing me into terrible positions that nonetheless didn't particularly benefit it at all.

(Like blahedo points out, this is possible because, unlike say basic MCTS, minimax uses a heuristic to judge board positions prior to game end, so it is possible for the two metrics to be out-of-sync.)

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:29PM (#26282343)
For anyone curious, this variant of chess where both players are trying to lose is simply called "anti-chess" and many chess programs have an anti-chess mode. Playing it is really weird.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by xiphias2 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:25AM (#26283122)
I looked it up, but that’s the known variant where the opponent has to take your pieces. Playing to lose a normal chess is uncomparably harder.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:59AM (#26284863)
Yes, good point. I'd forgotten that capturing was compulsory in anti-chess.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by zigzaggy on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:19AM (#26285342)
This reminds me of the first time I took LSD. I ended up at a hippy coffee shop with a Canadian soccer player (also tripping) playing a game of chess with the goal of losing.

It’s hard to play to lose! We ended up having a long conversation with a bearded man who kept telling us he’d been where we were.

Of that I have no doubt.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by FuckButtons on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:51AM (#26283221)
The chess computer story you’re half remembering sounds a lot like Kasparov playing against deep blue. I can’t find a link right now but somewhere on the internet there is an article where Kasparov describes the match in his own words and its really quite beautiful.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:41PM (#26282140)
> am-I the only one that thinks this whole "chat bot having a natural conversation to book an appointment" is useless when a simple date-picker would do?

Nope. I find being forced to converse in English with a machine to be absolutely infuriating. I know what I want and how to tell it to a machine. Being forced to add noise words to allow my request to pass through a useless extra layer is a disrespectful waste of my time and mental energy.

I will happily use an automated menu-driven system. But as soon as it forces me to "converse" with it, I do whatever I can to force it to connect me to an actual human.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by aidenn0 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:07AM (#26283436)
I remember some car rental system switched from having you enter your confirmation number on the keypad to voice recognition.

I'm most likely to use this system in a busy airport. After enough times of it not understanding me, it finally put me on hold for half an hour for me to read the number to a person. Something that took me less than a minute previously now was super frustrating.

I must not have been the only person this affected because they added back in the option to use touch tone.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by visarga on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:25AM (#26283120)
> I know what I want and how to tell it to a machine.

Yeah, Google search is not that great when you want to do conditional search in a topic with many false positives. For example I want to find a light electric scooter, under 10Kg of weight. Google will happily report all the pages that contain scooter and kg, but the kg would be for the max weight of the person, not the scooter itself. How do I tell it that in keywordese?

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:43AM (#26285137)
Actually I feel like Google is the one such service that is approaching natural language usability for general topic queries. It seems to me to be able to extract basic meaning from simple English phrases and search that sentiment. Whereas search phrases containing negatives ("not", "isn't") used to be futile, Google now correctly infers your meaning.

But yes, for parametric search I think I would always prefer a direct interface. It makes clear what is indexed and what isn't.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by sitkack on Saturday February 27, 2021 @02:06AM (#26283272)
Altavista had the "near" operator.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by gundmc on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:56AM (#26283599)
Google has the "AROUND" operator, though I haven't tried it recently to see if it is still respected.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by exporectomy on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:28PM (#26282571)
You probably don't like speaking to robots because they're currently terrible. Fixing that obviously has far more of an upside than just not trying.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Saturday February 27, 2021 @12:18AM (#26282851)
Maybe, but can I please not be forced to do business via the robots while they are terrible?

Also, beside being spectacularly good, the AI has to also be actually empowered for me not to find the process wasteful and insulting. The AI should actually be able to solve my problem as a result of natural language communication. Not just walk me through a prepared script: that's frustrating even when a real live human does it.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by craftinator on Saturday February 27, 2021 @12:19AM (#26282856)
Except that I, too, would rather book an appointment with a date picker than talk to anyone, much less a machine programmed to act like a person. It's like in order to make coffee, getting in my car and driving around the block ten times, parking in front of my house and going in to make coffee, vs just MAKING COFFEE, without doing a bunch of time wasting fluff first.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by exporectomy on Monday March 01, 2021 @09:25PM (#26311229)
This might be an age thing because I was like that when I was younger. I didn't understand why I had to keep interacting with seemingly pointless humans in service industries everywhere. But now I'm older, I find talking is more comfortable than using a computer. I don't quite know why. Maybe speaking to a human is something we're biologically built for and these other modes of interaction are a little extra taxing on the brain even if they appear simpler. They involve reading and writing which every school kid knows is harder work than talking.

Or maybe it's just that so many computer interactions are actually slow and frustrating. Ever tried ordering at McDonalds using the touch-screen machines? It's aggravatingly tedious and complicated. There's no "take my money and go away" button. You have to navigate your way through a bunch of stupid menus trying to up-sell you, and each one has an unforgivable loading time.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by hprotagonist on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:25PM (#26281046)
http://tom7.org/mario/

to be fair, learnfun was made for SIGBOVIK.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by 908B64B197 on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:30PM (#26281084)
I didn't know it was made for a joke conference!

But it does illustrates how it's easy to get trapped into a local minima.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by wizzwizz4 on Friday February 26, 2021 @06:42PM (#26281177)
They're doing what you tell them to, not what you want them to. Same with GPT-3; it's predicting what (from its experience) it thinks a human would say, not what is ethical to say.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by rmrfrmrf on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:02PM (#26282000)
unless...
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by fartcannon on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:13PM (#26282511)
There was an AI created the absolutely brilliant Tom7 on on his YouTube channel 'SuckerPinch' on April 1, 2013 that paused a game of Tetris instead of losing. In my opinion, Tom doesn't get enough credit for his work. He released his AI a full 8+ months before DeepMind released their Atari playing AI.

Watch the whole thing, it's delightful. The AI pauses Tetris right before it loses at around 16mins into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCurBYI_gY

I also recommend his other videos. Brilliant guy.

Edit: Here's the paper http://tom7.org/mario/mario.pdf

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by etrain on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:22PM (#26282551)
Tom7’s sigbovik submissions are true works of art. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/mario/mario.pdf
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by UncleMeat on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:56PM (#26287149)
My personal favorite is the compiler that uses only the printable bytes.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by SatvikBeri on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:44PM (#26281923)
Two minute papers has many fun examples of AIs with unexpected behavior, OpenAI's hide and seek is one of my favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu56xVlZ40M
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by andai on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:17PM (#26282074)
> chat bot having a natural conversation to book an appointment

Sounds like a social anxiety simulator to me.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by Lorin on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:34AM (#26283721)
Reminds me of an old (~8yr?) article about applying machine learning to hardware - and one of the tests was producing a chipset that could produce a certain output tone.

... it worked, but only in a specific area of the lab. When they looked at the layout, they discovered the ML system designed a circuit that picked up relevant nearby EM/radio noise as the source, so when the chip was moved - it broke. It produced a radio! :)

Wish I could remember the article since it also mentioned unusual circuit designs that weren't directly connected to each other, but used some IC 'gotchas' in advantageous ways (albeit inconsistently) to reach the goal.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by Isomatik on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:47AM (#26285540)
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by jazzyjackson on Saturday February 27, 2021 @02:15AM (#26283299)
My first role as a software developer was writing an elaborate chatbot that worked as a document retrieval and recommendation system that would conversationally collect the prerequisites to running SQL scripts. Many months in we added shortcuts to the system that essentially turned it into drop down menus for users who didn't want to talk to a chatty personality to get work done.

I loved ChatScript and filling templates with data retrieved through fact-triples tho, hope I get to work with it again someday.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by UncleMeat on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:55PM (#26287141)
It is very important to know two things about that work.

1. It was for Sigbovik, which is a joke conference. The work was a fun side project by one dude.

2. Tom Murphy isn't an AI researcher, it wasn't intended to demonstrate the state of the art of the field, and it wasn't using modern techniques like neural networks.

It was a great story and I love Tom's work, but it shouldn't be used as a meaningful example of the limitations or worries regarding AI.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by Mengkudulangsat on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:53PM (#26281958)
I had a client trying to build this.

A) An AI can be given the decision tree in English, but facilitate the date-picking conversation in many languages

B) Small businesses (think hairdressers, saloons) don't have dedicated receptionists. So the AI's job is to filter requests and put them into buckets so that employees can process them more efficiently.

C) Small businesses need something that works with WhatsApp. Date pickers are hard to integrate with that.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:47PM (#26282164)
Regarding B -- why can't the user just pick the category from a menu? Personally, I despise being asked to categorize my ask in English to an AI, as I have no way of knowing how much detail I need to provide to get my request into the right "bucket", or whether I've succeeded in doing so. With a menu I can do that in 3 seconds and one click, with immediate feedback.

Regarding C -- why does the date selection need to occur in WhatsApp? If a user has WhatsApp, they have a web browser. If a 3rd party has servers running WhatsApp bots, they can host a web server. Why not, from WhatsApp, link the user to a website to select a date?

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by iujjkfjdkkdkf on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:32PM (#26282358)
I think B is just a symptom of the complete failure of (many) business people to understand what ML is or what it is good at. It starts with people equating "AI" with something they've seen in a movie and working backwards, and like you say, ends with just a really bad way of interacting with a menu system. This is going to persist until either we invent AGI or AI stops being a buzzword used by business people who have no idea what the technology actually does to make up use cases.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by Mengkudulangsat on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:32PM (#26282594)
Both B) and C) is because these small businesses, most of them have no website. The barrier to entry for businesses to go online from a resource perspective (time, training, cost etc.) is much, much lower to just have a Whatsapp business account.

Whatsapp is just an amazing bang-for-your-buck proposition, but we are limited to the constraint of that ecosystem.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Saturday February 27, 2021 @12:14AM (#26282831)
If a small business can pay someone else to develop and host a turnkey WhatsApp bot, they can pay someone else to develop and host a turnkey website, no?
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by Mengkudulangsat on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:47AM (#26283970)
It's not meant to be specific to the business. People usually contact small businesses for scheduling / rescheduling / cancellations , those kinds of inquiries are "bot-able" to certain extend. The plan is to have an affordable subsription service for general use.

As I mention before, the decision tree is still designed by the business, the AI is for the natural language processing.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:21AM (#26285010)
I'm not following. Why can't that service be a web site? That doesn't imply it has to be specific to the business. Think PayPal or Square.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by 177tcca on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:21AM (#26283105)
But...what if they don't know how? Hiring for things you don't know how to do, or why you would, is very difficult.
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by colanderman on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:28AM (#26285043)
Why does that make paying for a natural language bot better? Small business owners don't know how to implement natural language AIs any more than they know how to make a web site.

People hire others to do things they don't understand all the time. That's the point of hiring people. You ask your peers for a recommendation and judge based on the result.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by tyingq on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:10PM (#26281369)
"when a simple date-picker would do?"

I guess it would depend on the context. Some people might find it handy in an Alexa type device.

But yeah it makes no sense on a phone or PC.

Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by mlyle on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:32PM (#26281494)
In fairness, this was my strategy at age 6, too. :P
Re:Medical chatbot using OpenAI’s GPT-3 told a fake patient ... by 40four on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:45PM (#26281928)
That sounds like the AI equivalent of 'flipping the table'!