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Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by ctdonath on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:31PM (#26138738)
As the Founding Fathers of the USA intended: establish minimal governance to facilitate polite commerce, and otherwise stay the he11 out of each others' business.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by refenestrator on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:46PM (#26138819)
The founding fathers of the USA hacked out a patchwork of compromises to put together a government. Great work, some of the ideas aged well. But they weren't prophets and they weren't building a plan for the cyberpunk future we're finding ourselves in.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by lotsofpulp on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:02PM (#26138933)
The fetish for “founding fathers” as infallible superheroes is really weird.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by jfengel on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:59AM (#26155086)
It makes a lot of sense if you view it through the lens of people preferring the status quo. The "founding fathers" can always be used to justify leaving things as they were.

That's good if the status quo is working for you. It's not so good if you're somebody who the system fails for.

The really horrifying part is that there are people in the latter group who imagine that they're part of the former. The system is failing them, but for a variety of reasons they're convinced that any change will make it worse.

Much of the time, it's because they've been played off against other groups who are also having problems in the current system, and told it's a zero-sum game: if they do better, you must be worse. If you just keep revering the "founding fathers" eventually you too will be successful.

The worse they do, the harder they revere. It's a vicious cycle, and I have no idea how to break it.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:10PM (#26138981)
Mmmh, here's my take: they are not infallible superheroes. They were fallible human beings.

Are there better people, today, who could lead the country? Of course. Will they ever actually be elected to do so? Sadly, no.

America in the late 1700s was a weird moment in history where educated, forward-thinking intellectuals (not nobility, not just the moneyed elite — actually a lot of men who (mostly) deserved to be called intellectual) actually had a chance to make the rules. They made pretty good ones. Some flawed rules, but good ones.

We're not going to get that again. The real-time feedback of TwitterDemocracy would prevent us from ever getting a document as general yet meaningful as the Bill of Rights, with basically unfettered rights to speech and assembly.

So until I see a viable path to put people in charge who actually surpass them in wisdom and foresight, I'm going to stick to what they put forward. It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by tomrod on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:13PM (#26139000)
You might be interested in reading on many of the other democracies out there that update their constitutions frequently.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by dang on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:12PM (#26160726)
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic or ideological flamewar, or any flamewar. We're trying for something else here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:16PM (#26139022)
There are no other democracies out there that have the almost-unfettered rights to assembly and speech that the US has. This is important to me.

And FWIW, there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US. Every other democracy (save by some measures the UK) has fallen to coup or revolution in less than this duration.

Their latest constitutions may work to keep them stable as long as the US has managed. Or they may not. Time will tell.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by Clewza313 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:44PM (#26139188)
Freedom of assembly and speech are table stakes in most democracies, and the US doesn't even rank particularly highly (#45) in the World Press Freedom index:

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

The real outlier in the US is gun rights.

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Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Monday February 15, 2021 @01:21PM (#26145457)
My young country didn't gas 12 million of its own citizens, so I'd say we're doing comparatively better.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by dang on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:12PM (#26160735)
Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? This is over the top.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by crumbshot on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:32PM (#26139122)
> there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US.

Are you taking the end of the US civil war as the starting point? If so, then Switzerland has a longer duration of peaceful rule of law.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:40PM (#26139172)
I don't see that as necessary, given that most of the US remained under continuous democratic governance. The rest... got there eventually.

Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland. Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out.

And let's be honest -- Switzerland was not functionally independent in WWII. It wasn't necessary to invade, because they did whatever the Third Reich wanted with their stolen gold and borders. This is not the stability I am looking for.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by joubert on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:49AM (#26139525)
> Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out.

Would you say that Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s political thought has been valuable and influential in the world?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by crumbshot on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:51AM (#26139534)
> Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland.

What exactly is your central thesis? It sounds like you're presenting an argument of American exceptionalism, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point here.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by pm90 on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:20AM (#26139373)
> It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better.

It has aged well only if you ignore the fact that millions of Americans who were at first considered property, and then “freed” only to be incarcerated and discriminated against, don’t have a say in what “well” means.

Politicians of today understand today’s problems and are better equipped to find answers to those problems. They are armed with a team of educated aides and have access to political science research. I’m confident they could devise a better, modern constitution today.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by ctdonath on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:12PM (#26138994)
They weren’t, but did achieve something remarkable that’s still underappreciated by many.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by csb6 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:50PM (#26139218)
Underappreciated? The founding fathers have been rubbed continuously in every American's face for the last 200 years. Few people under-appreciate them. Every media property, every news article, every public figure continues to worship them as Gods. The status quo position is that the Constitution and the Founders were basically right about the important stuff, and that overall they were very cool guys (even if some of them had the minor flaw of owning slaves). At least this is the narrative that was driven into me throughout all of my education. It seems to be a common viewpoint for both liberals and conservatives.

I agree, though, that the Founders did create something remarkable: a genocidal empire that draped itself in ideals of equality and righteousness when it was largely built by slaves and exploited workers; professed to love diversity and Christian morals as it genocided untold numbers of Native Americans; styled itself as a defender against European imperialism in the Western Hemisphere while it built its own empire and repeatedly intervened militarily in Latin American countries; claimed to be in favor of free markets while using its military and police forces to suppress workers/foreign governments to favor American corporate interests; and so on. It really is a remarkable project.

Let's be honest. The Founders were wealthy landowners that wanted to create a political system that favored themselves, while deposing the British powers that were a rung above them.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by vulcan01 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:45PM (#26138812)
The Founding Fathers (save one) also intended that slavery would exist. All of them were very rich. All of them were men, too (as their collective name suggests).

The problem with appealing to the Founding Fathers is that they were profoundly uninterested in equality of opportunity, due to who they were. It is a useful exercise to consider what they would have done — that does not itself demonstrate anything.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by red-montaigne on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:20PM (#26139046)
Don't disagree with your points, but it's worth considering:

1. The Founding Fathers were products of their place and time. Many other countries engaged in the slave trade and employed slave labor, and women played a similar role in other societies. Racism and sexism were commonplace around the world during their time. You can reasonably argue that American slavery was uniquely cruel and long-lived if you want, although I would say that position downplays the horrors suffered by slaves under other governments.

2. The Founding Fathers, for all their faults, were clearly very poignant observers of human nature and history. They thoughtfully designed an extremely successful form of government that has inspired countries around the world to copy their model and arguably contributed to material prosperity unparalleled in history.

None of that is to discount what you're saying, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by ctdonath on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:11PM (#26138984)
The Founding Fathers intended the elimination of slavery, and banned it to a meaningful degree during establishment of the new nation, but had to compromise lest the fragile Union break before it could form.

Slavery eventually eliminated (before most other nations), at tremendous cost not appreciated by many benefiting from that payment.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by imbnwa on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:39PM (#26139167)
France, Spain, and England all abolished slavery in their colonies at least 30 years before the American Civil War.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by true_religion on Monday February 15, 2021 @06:42AM (#26141800)
Slavery in colonies is functionally different from American slavery.

Colonial slavery oppressed conquered people's on their local soil where they were the majority. This is hard to keep up for a global power constantly at war with its neighbors.

American slavery oppressed ethnic minorities ripped from their homeland and taken to a different continent. Slaves had a harder time coordinating rebellions as they were not a single conquered peoples, and were in the minority so couldn't count on winning battles of attrition.

American slavery, like the Roman version it was patterned against, could have continued for hundreds of years if not for the Civil War.

Colonial slavery though was a lost battle from the start. Colonial powers needed to develop their colonies, but the moment you do that you increase the chance of successful rebelion. The only way to defuse it is to reduce the oppression.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by dragonwriter on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:48PM (#26139207)
> The Founding Fathers intended the elimination of slavery

The Founding Fathers didn't have a shared opinion on the issue, and the only concrete action they jointly took was directly protect it and to bake in extra political power for slavers.

> but had to compromise lest the fragile Union break before it could form

The people those founding fathers who wanted slavery eventually eliminated had to compromise with were also founding fathers.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by throwawayboise on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:56PM (#26138881)
That the founders were flawed as human beings, is not an argument against limited government or more broadly the ideals that comprise the US Constitution.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by yesenadam on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:00PM (#26138916)
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by pm90 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:02PM (#26138929)
It is an argument against their deification and to appeal to their way of thinking.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by gumby on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:54PM (#26138867)
That's why we are on constitution 2.27: they found that 1.0 was too minimal. The Confederacy tried to walk back in that direction a bit and found that it made their ability to run their "country" much harder (in addition to their other self-defeating pathologies).
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by gilbetron on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:06PM (#26138949)
That's a heck of a stretch of history. They wanted gov powers "limited" as opposed to "unlimited", but the concept that the US was set up with almost no government is a (false) Libertarian talking point.

https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/colonial-complai...

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by A12-B on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:50PM (#26138847)
A shame what this has caused.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by plainOldText on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:35PM (#26138764)
Too bad HN doesn’t have double votes.

Also, self organization is an important feature of a complex system.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by ryanmarsh on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:34PM (#26138758)
I wonder how such an anemic federal govt could avoid becoming the client state of a major world power in the modern complex world where the stakes are so high, the opponents are playing the long game, and the oligarchs have no national loyalty.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:50PM (#26138846)
It's the other way around. If you bind their hands (e.g. constitutionally reduce the power of the central government and have the states and cities take over what it currently does) then oligarchs have to fight in every state and town instead of in one place for everyone. Then sometimes they lose, instead of the status quo where a federal government controlled by oligarchs has its hand in everything.