News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by refenestrator on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:46PM (#26138819)
The founding fathers of the USA hacked out a patchwork of compromises to put together a government. Great work, some of the ideas aged well. But they weren't prophets and they weren't building a plan for the cyberpunk future we're finding ourselves in.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by lotsofpulp on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:02PM (#26138933)
The fetish for “founding fathers” as infallible superheroes is really weird.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by jfengel on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:59AM (#26155086)
It makes a lot of sense if you view it through the lens of people preferring the status quo. The "founding fathers" can always be used to justify leaving things as they were.

That's good if the status quo is working for you. It's not so good if you're somebody who the system fails for.

The really horrifying part is that there are people in the latter group who imagine that they're part of the former. The system is failing them, but for a variety of reasons they're convinced that any change will make it worse.

Much of the time, it's because they've been played off against other groups who are also having problems in the current system, and told it's a zero-sum game: if they do better, you must be worse. If you just keep revering the "founding fathers" eventually you too will be successful.

The worse they do, the harder they revere. It's a vicious cycle, and I have no idea how to break it.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:10PM (#26138981)
Mmmh, here's my take: they are not infallible superheroes. They were fallible human beings.

Are there better people, today, who could lead the country? Of course. Will they ever actually be elected to do so? Sadly, no.

America in the late 1700s was a weird moment in history where educated, forward-thinking intellectuals (not nobility, not just the moneyed elite — actually a lot of men who (mostly) deserved to be called intellectual) actually had a chance to make the rules. They made pretty good ones. Some flawed rules, but good ones.

We're not going to get that again. The real-time feedback of TwitterDemocracy would prevent us from ever getting a document as general yet meaningful as the Bill of Rights, with basically unfettered rights to speech and assembly.

So until I see a viable path to put people in charge who actually surpass them in wisdom and foresight, I'm going to stick to what they put forward. It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by tomrod on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:13PM (#26139000)
You might be interested in reading on many of the other democracies out there that update their constitutions frequently.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by dang on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:12PM (#26160726)
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic or ideological flamewar, or any flamewar. We're trying for something else here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:16PM (#26139022)
There are no other democracies out there that have the almost-unfettered rights to assembly and speech that the US has. This is important to me.

And FWIW, there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US. Every other democracy (save by some measures the UK) has fallen to coup or revolution in less than this duration.

Their latest constitutions may work to keep them stable as long as the US has managed. Or they may not. Time will tell.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by Clewza313 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:44PM (#26139188)
Freedom of assembly and speech are table stakes in most democracies, and the US doesn't even rank particularly highly (#45) in the World Press Freedom index:

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

The real outlier in the US is gun rights.

[dead]
[dead]
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Monday February 15, 2021 @01:21PM (#26145457)
My young country didn't gas 12 million of its own citizens, so I'd say we're doing comparatively better.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by dang on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:12PM (#26160735)
Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? This is over the top.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by crumbshot on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:32PM (#26139122)
> there are (by most measures) no other democracies out there which have gone as long under peaceful rule of law as the US.

Are you taking the end of the US civil war as the starting point? If so, then Switzerland has a longer duration of peaceful rule of law.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by bpodgursky on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:40PM (#26139172)
I don't see that as necessary, given that most of the US remained under continuous democratic governance. The rest... got there eventually.

Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland. Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out.

And let's be honest -- Switzerland was not functionally independent in WWII. It wasn't necessary to invade, because they did whatever the Third Reich wanted with their stolen gold and borders. This is not the stability I am looking for.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by joubert on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:49AM (#26139525)
> Switzerland is a country that has done very well for its people, but the lessons which have kept it stable and safe over the past two centuries (have a lot of mountains, and don't be worth invading) are not ones which extrapolate out.

Would you say that Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s political thought has been valuable and influential in the world?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by crumbshot on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:51AM (#26139534)
> Even if you do count from the end of the civil war, I would not consider my central thesis destroyed by the small and frankly uniquely weird country of Switzerland.

What exactly is your central thesis? It sounds like you're presenting an argument of American exceptionalism, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point here.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by pm90 on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:20AM (#26139373)
> It has aged and worked amazingly well, and have 0 confidence that the politicians of today, if starting from scratch, would do better.

It has aged well only if you ignore the fact that millions of Americans who were at first considered property, and then “freed” only to be incarcerated and discriminated against, don’t have a say in what “well” means.

Politicians of today understand today’s problems and are better equipped to find answers to those problems. They are armed with a team of educated aides and have access to political science research. I’m confident they could devise a better, modern constitution today.

Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by ctdonath on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:12PM (#26138994)
They weren’t, but did achieve something remarkable that’s still underappreciated by many.
Re:How the Hell Do You Govern in a Complex World by csb6 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @11:50PM (#26139218)
Underappreciated? The founding fathers have been rubbed continuously in every American's face for the last 200 years. Few people under-appreciate them. Every media property, every news article, every public figure continues to worship them as Gods. The status quo position is that the Constitution and the Founders were basically right about the important stuff, and that overall they were very cool guys (even if some of them had the minor flaw of owning slaves). At least this is the narrative that was driven into me throughout all of my education. It seems to be a common viewpoint for both liberals and conservatives.

I agree, though, that the Founders did create something remarkable: a genocidal empire that draped itself in ideals of equality and righteousness when it was largely built by slaves and exploited workers; professed to love diversity and Christian morals as it genocided untold numbers of Native Americans; styled itself as a defender against European imperialism in the Western Hemisphere while it built its own empire and repeatedly intervened militarily in Latin American countries; claimed to be in favor of free markets while using its military and police forces to suppress workers/foreign governments to favor American corporate interests; and so on. It really is a remarkable project.

Let's be honest. The Founders were wealthy landowners that wanted to create a political system that favored themselves, while deposing the British powers that were a rung above them.