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Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by lettergram on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @11:46PM (#26022707)
I don’t think you’ve worked a job where you got tipped, have you?

It’s actually one of the few ways people can make a lot of money for doing a good job. What you describe punishes hard work, the people getting tips would hate it.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by dealforager on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:01AM (#26022791)
Most of the information I've read about this says that tips do not correlate with job performance. Instead, things like race, sex, attractiveness, and other things have a bigger impact. I've even caught myself doing this, where I'll realize after the fact that the only reason I tipped extra was because I noticed the worker was either a very attractive woman/man. It's not even sexual attraction since I'm not attracted to men. My guess is that I'm more likely to notice good service if I first notice the server, which happens more when they are attractive.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by Fogest on Thursday February 04, 2021 @01:50AM (#26023245)
It's likely similar to that bias where attractive people also progress faster in jobs. Even if you're not personally attracted to them, you still have that bias.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by imgabe on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @11:59PM (#26022776)
Most jobs don't have tips. People working in them still manage to do a good job and many of them make a lot more than people in tipped jobs do.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by trowawee on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:02AM (#26022798)
My PM doesn’t tip me when I complete a ticket quickly; I don’t tip QA when they catch a bug in my code; the on-call engineer doesn’t tip me when some docs I wrote save them a few hours of time fixing an issue I saw during my last on-call rotation. And yet! The company seems to keep making money and doing well, and we all seem to like each other (mostly, except for that one guy, but he doesn’t like anyone).
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by apsurd on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:08AM (#26022824)
tip based jobs are overwhelmingly minimum wage. of course we can argue whether that’s cause or effect, but the point is, it makes very little sense to compare literally “the minimum allowable threshold for legal employment” to professional salaried employees.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by lotsofpulp on Thursday February 04, 2021 @05:41AM (#26024294)
It makes all the sense because a common argument in favor of tipping is “it improves service” or that it “rewards good service”.

In reality, it’s a gesture of pity for those who earn little, and who we don’t want to pay properly via decent wage regulations and increase product prices, but we want them to dance for us and have them hope we will toss a few coins their way. In the process, we get to feel good like benevolent dictators who have chosen to be generous and share their wealth.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by viraptor on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:12AM (#26022844)
Apart from other responses pretty much disproving this, consider which people you're rewarding. Not every place will share the tips with cooks / dish washers / owners / etc. It actually causes conflicts in those places (don't share -> kitchen hates front staff; share -> front staff hates kitchen).
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by andrei_says_ on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:15AM (#26022858)
The people who steal the difference between a living wage and a tip-subsidized wage?

Subsidized by us, who pay twice?

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by vladvasiliu on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:50AM (#26023011)
> The people who steal the difference between a living wage and a tip-subsidized wage?

The people who could "steal the difference" are usually the owners, right? Not sure why GP put the owners and kitchen staff in the same bucket.

From my experience as a client in bars (without actual kitchens) in Paris, France, where tipping "isn't expected but kinda is" [0], most of the time tips are split between wait staff. So I kind of get the issue that if some waiter is going above and beyond and is nice / helpful / quick to serve / etc, whereas a colleague will do the bare minimum, when someone tips, this is diluted.

As a client, I'm tipping X for the service, but this particular waiter will only get a fraction of that, the same as his low-effort colleague. I'm not really OK with that.

Most places I usually go are rather small and the waiters seem comparable, so I guess it's not usually an issue I have in practice.

However, there are other, usually larger places where quality of service varies much more, and I'm usually much less inclined to tip in those places. I've also heard from bar staff having worked in such places that there indeed is more tension between staff, along the lines of "so and so just waits around / doesn't do anything". Wouldn't be surprised that the complainer wouldn't be all too happy to split their tips in such a case.

---

[0] Technically, in France, prices are "all-inclusive", that means service is already included in the price, so you don't have to tip. However, at least in bars around Paris, I've noticed that it's somewhat expected to get a tip, especially when clients are considered "difficult" (though I'm unable to exactly quantify that).

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by viraptor on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:59AM (#26023050)
> Not sure why GP put the owners and kitchen staff in the same bucket.

Because the parent was talking about rewarding good job. The kitchen staff and the owners are both a factor in your good time and invisible during that time. If that's a honest opinion about the purpose of tips, then I don't see why owners/managers shouldn't share the pool. They run the place, created the environment, hired the people interacting with you. Then there are managers who deal with day-to-day issues in the place, right?

But that's not true of course - it's about owners not paying people properly.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by lettergram on Thursday February 04, 2021 @08:34AM (#26025158)
Many kitchens or even chain restaurants do share the pool... they won’t share with the owner or managers, but the crew working will.

Kind of astounding reading all these comments because I don’t think any have worked in a kitchen (or perhaps a fast food joint)

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by viraptor on Thursday February 04, 2021 @02:55PM (#26029085)
Many do, many don't, and changes are interesting. I've seen the reaction of front staff being told kitchen will share their tips - let's say they were not happy.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by andrei_says_ on Thursday February 04, 2021 @02:51PM (#26029052)
Yes, the owners who do not pay their staff because they get it to be subsidized by tips.

This now includes Uber, Lyft, Instacart etc. getting filthy rich from employing AI to maximize human exploitation and misery.

Because they can.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by deepsun on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @11:58PM (#26022770)
The best service I've seen in Japan. And they get offended by tips.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by baby on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:34AM (#26022943)
Agree, thanks to the tipping culture I can sit in a restaurant with my friends and be asked every 5min if everything is good. Then at the end I can decide how much they will make from me, nothing or a bunch? Maybe I’ll discriminate and judge how much they deserve based on how they look.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by katbyte on Thursday February 04, 2021 @02:19AM (#26023349)
Ugh I hate the being asked every 5min things are good. Much prefer dining in Europe where it’s not thenorm
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by Ericson2314 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:05AM (#26022808)
What about the customers just in a bad mood taking it out on you? What about the restaurants that pay sub-minimimum wage before tips? (basically a tax dodge.)

I'm not saying all bonus-based comp is bad, but it's rather out of place for nominally unskilled labor especially when it is a huge portion of total comp.

The fact of the matter is the economics of much restaurant work it totally wack.

I look forward to a cyberchill future of near-fully-automated cheaper-than-cooking-at-home not-cooked-to-order restaurants with an owner-masterchef as the only human in the operations.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by nine_k on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:12AM (#26022843)
I've actually seen how a restaurant is run. Waiters put the tips into a common pot, then split equally. It was their idea.

Drivers, who don't work in close proximity to each other, may have it differently, of course.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by edgyquant on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:19AM (#26022867)
This isn’t every restaurant though. My ex-wife used to be a waitress and if there was a pooled tip jar she immediately began looking for a different place without one. Drivers, otoh, usually make at least minimum wage but then they need that money for gas as well.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by michaelmrose on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:42AM (#26022974)
If your wife is broadly viewed as attractive and working in the half of employees at her business which interacts with the public she may benefit more than average from tips which provides a poor justification for making a decision if the broad welfare of all employees in tipped industries is concerned.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by edgyquant on Thursday February 04, 2021 @01:12AM (#26023103)
I was only commenting on the pooling of tips which isn’t something every place does
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by michaelmrose on Thursday February 04, 2021 @04:43PM (#26030144)
In any situation where the following benefits accrue

A: 80 B: 80 C: 80

A would logically prefer a situation where the following benefits accrue even with total outcomes being on average worse because A is logically and understandably primarily interested in their own well being.

A: 100 B: 50 C: 50

Tips are better for the employer because they fan advertise a price n where the customer will be expected to pay n+10-25%

Pooled tips are better on average because the extra tax the employer is able to levy accrues to everyone. Non pooled tips are better for attractive people or those who are much more competent than their peers.

No tips and actually paying employees what they are worth is even better.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by devchix on Thursday February 04, 2021 @04:52PM (#26030224)
>No tips and actually paying employees what they are worth is even better.

There's plenty of resistance from the servers themselves, though. Whenever this subject comes up on kitchen-pros related subreddits, IIRC this just came up not too long ago (/r/kitchenconfidentials, I think?) servers don't want to take straight wages over tips. I always think qualifiers like "better" doesn't mean better for everyone. Some servers make so much in tips, or think they can exceed their straight wages in tips, that they believe the current system favors them. Much like the majority of SWEs on HN are vociferously resistant to the idea of a SWE union.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by icelancer on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:24AM (#26022891)
I mean, that restaurant, I guess? I worked five years as a server at three places and we never did this.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by worik on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:59AM (#26023051)
I do not want the wait staff who serve me to do a great, or even a good, job.

I want them to do a adequate job.

Good enough is good enough for me.

Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by baby on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:30AM (#26022923)
I worked at McDonalds in the kitchen, didn’t get tipped.
Re:Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips by franklampard on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:30AM (#26022924)
Employer not paying enough punishes hard work