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Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by Miraste on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @10:58AM (#26002504)
In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by Lammy on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:18AM (#26002818)
Case in point: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2011-June/m...

"Facilitating the unrestricted use of extensions and themes by end users seems contrary to the central tenets of the GNOME 3 design."

Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:28AM (#26002982)
Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by cycloptic on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @12:35PM (#26003904)
I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by michaelmrose on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:42AM (#26011794)
They produce bad software with a bad interface based on a bad theory of how people use things and when people critique their bad software they give bad reasons, argued badly, with a bad attitude and in bad faith to boot.

It truly needs its own fractal of bad design essay save it would have to a farce in 7 parts.

To say that they targeted a different kind of user is insufficiently descriptive. 3.0 was the beginning of ticking off the users they actually had in order to target users they wish they could get with a total package that such users could never encounter in a million years because joe average wasn't installing Linux in 2011 regardless of how simple you made the interface.

9 years later the Linux user base is virtually unchanged and gnome 3 is no longer horrifying as 9 years of labor have rendered it modestly acceptable after the worst ideas were put off or mitigated.

If you spent 300k building a hovel where the roof fell in quarterly and you after much consternation and a decade of work figured out how to keep the roof mostly in place most of the time I would pretty much expect such a project to be the go to horror story among home builders in the neighborhood.

This isn't meanness its just honesty.

Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by Miraste on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @01:00PM (#26004290)
That's their justification, but put a non-technical user in front of a gnome system and you will find nothing but confusion. It doesn't operate like any other OS GUI, nor is it intuitive or discoverable, nor does it have feature parity. They must be designing gnome for someone, but I don't know who.
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by cycloptic on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @01:06PM (#26004350)
I don't know, last time I tried stock Ubuntu I found it to be pretty similar to current macOS with the launchpad and mission control. In any case, the answer to those problems you're describing would be more and more breaking changes, not less.
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by type0 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:28PM (#26007846)
Ubuntu ships with a patched version of GNOME, default experience is completely different.
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by Macha on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @12:47PM (#26004100)
Because the user they were hostile to were the users that had been until then the majority of Gnome's users. It may be a good business move to ditch your existing userbase in favour of a potential larger one but the userbase you've moved on from have no obligation to be happy about that
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by cycloptic on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @12:57PM (#26004247)
I don't expect the community to be happy, I would say I more expect a community of engineers to be realistic. The ship has unfortunately sailed long ago and it's not coming back.
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by type0 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:32PM (#26007900)
> because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person.

It is not, sometimes GNOME devs even say outright that the project is for their peers and those who share their vision. They do their testing on other GNOME aficionados. In the days of Unity, Canonical did some of their user testing on regular people, those days are long gone.

Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by cbpowell on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:52AM (#26003323)
Agreed. And yet it's somehow ascended to being the default environment for Fedora, Ubuntu, Pop!_OS...
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by dancek on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:19AM (#26002827)
I've heard this from a couple of power users before. But maybe GNOME does not optimize for power users?
Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by 72deluxe on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:57AM (#26003405)
I remember following the GNOME blog for some time and finally decided I'd never go back after the article on how gEdit was being "improved" by completely hiding the menubar, the toolbar and basically any usable controls. It was written such that "focus" and "distraction-free" computing was the ultimate goal and that UI controls were somehow "distracting".... The file open/save dialog involves multiple clicks before it is usable because obviously a path edit box is WAY too distracting...

I don't ever remember cursing my Windows 3.11 machine that the scrollbar and toolbar icons were distracting in File Manager, nor do I crash my car when the speedometer changes and wish that the distraction of the speedo and rev counter was removed.

I remember using GNOME2 and loving it.

I often wonder constitutes a "power user" - someone who wants to actually get stuff done and not fight the UI to discover things??

I wonder when iOS became the ideal - blindly fumble around whitespace to see if some text is actually a button or if there is some unfathomable control hidden that you need a magic incantation to discover (swipe left on a list control is delete - my mum still doesn't know this)?

Is a "power user" someone who has learned all the different ways of interacting with a modern user interface? You used to learn: click, double-click and scrollwheel. Now every interaction with a control is different and impossible to learn or discover simply by using it. Absymal.

Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by betterunix2 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @12:35PM (#26003917)
What is a "power user?" Sounds like the same nonsense we hear from proprietary software vendors all the time, "That feature is for enterprise users."

Gnome more or less optimizes for minimal configurability, the theory being that most users want the UI to be as clean as possible. They do not particularly care if someone would like to be able to change some annoying behavior, because they thought that behavior made sense and they feel the cost of adding a button to disable it, or even burying a configuration bit in gconf, is far too high. Of course, they do not have the resources needed to run actual user studies the way Apple, Google, and Microsoft do, so their idea of what users want is mostly based on their own ideas about what users want (since they usually dismiss feature requests from their actual users, because those are "power users").

Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by Miraste on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @01:07PM (#26004376)
With apologies to Joseph Heller:

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one’s own UI in the face of flaws that were real and immediate was the process of a power user. Orr was an average user and could be listened to. All he had to do was write a feature request; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be an average user and would have to be ignored."

Re:I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit by yongjik on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @01:02PM (#26004305)
For example, GNOME doesn't support session save out of box. I think it's an incredibly helpful feature, especially for beginners - but maybe GNOME developers simply know that, deep down, all of us yearn for a clean blank slate whenever we restart our box, and showing the apps we've been using five minutes ago will only confuse our brain.

Also it doesn't even show hibernate button on the "start menu" (or whatever it's called these days) - because apparently the ability to actually power down the box while keeping all states is too confusing to have!