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Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by rwmj on Sunday January 31, 2021 @04:42PM (#25982838)
I think the more interesting part of the story (if I'm reading it right) is he paid $5000 to completely own a company with millions in assets.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by sn_master on Sunday January 31, 2021 @04:45PM (#25982861)
Not sure about this case, but owning all trading shares doesn't mean owning the company. A company may have only 2% of its value as public shares and the rest owned by the company itself.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by rblatz on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:53AM (#25985969)
But with all the hassle of reporting earnings and being publicly traded it would have surely been cheaper for the company to buy back those shares.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by sn_master on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:22AM (#25988027)
Not always. Saudi Aramco went public with only 1.5% of their value, and that was 25 Billion dollars, a good amount by any measure, specially useful when you need $$$ for weapons for your war in Yemen.

Besides the money, they also wanted to test the waters before going in with a larger percentage and I don't know if the market could have handled a new 1.7 Trillion dollar company joining all at once.

https://www.investopedia.com/what-is-saudi-aramco-4682590

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by koolba on Sunday January 31, 2021 @05:12PM (#25983092)
If you own all the shares then you can control the company via voting control. That’d generally allow you to prevent the issuance of new shares and you could hand pick the board as their terms expire. It’s not immediate, but you’d eventually be in control of everything.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by brockwhittaker on Sunday January 31, 2021 @05:20PM (#25983156)
Not all shares have voting power, and even so the voting power of those shares (if they were 2% of the company for example) may be proportionally tiny compared to the founders/board/execs.

For example shareholders don't have any control at FB, since Mark controls 51% of the voting power.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by YZF on Sunday January 31, 2021 @06:35PM (#25983765)
It's fairly unusual to have companies with this sort of structure. Why would you ever buy shares in a company that doesn't pay dividends and where you can get infinitely diluted and have no control? (other than for speculative reasons)
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by astrange on Sunday January 31, 2021 @08:31PM (#25984572)
Discounted future cash flow includes all of dividends, possible future acquisition, and greater fools buying it from you. The last one being what drives Tesla and cryptos.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by phonon on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:29PM (#25985216)
NYSE: SNAP ("Snapchat") listed shares have no voting rights, and they seem to be doing okay.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by bhk on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:51PM (#25985341)
And GOOG seems to be doing okay.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by entangledqubit on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:35PM (#25985573)
Amusingly, the voting shares are currently worth less than the nonvoting.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by sn_master on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:39AM (#25988099)
I just checked and you are right (1835 vs 1827). Funnily, there is this:

"but unlike common shares, they do not confer voting rights to shareholders. As a result, these shares tend to trade at a discount to Class-A shares. "

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/052615/whats-differ...

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by bhk on Monday February 01, 2021 @02:12AM (#25986366)
They should issue a class of shares that are guaranteed to never pay a dividend or be redeemable for anything. Maybe they will trade even higher!
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by recursive on Sunday January 31, 2021 @06:59PM (#25983961)
Maybe the future potential of dividends?
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by echelon on Sunday January 31, 2021 @07:27PM (#25984155)
> doesn't pay dividends

Tech/growth doesn't pay dividends as dividends are a signal your business is done growing. Dividend companies would rather return capital to investors than place more bets and keep growing.

Tech and growth stocks have minted many millionaires. And sometimes overnight.

This is also why growth companies sometimes don't reach profitability. They're spending their revenue eating the rest of the market and gaining monopoly.

> no control?

People that invested in Facebook made lots of money. They were probably fine with the arrangement. If they stop being fine with it, the stock price will decline.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by ineedasername on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:57PM (#25985038)
If you own all of the voting shares sure. But a company can have 100,000,000 shares, own 99,000,000 of them, so only 1,000,000 are trading. If you buy all 1,000,000 of those shares you don't have much power.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by dragonwriter on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:00PM (#25985050)
If you have 100% of the outstanding shares, you have 100% of the voting rights; treasury stock doesn't vote.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by tylerhou on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:34PM (#25985243)
I think the above commenter was trying to say: you can't always own 100% of the outstanding shares with voting rights, because in most cases insiders hold many shares that they will not sell.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by ineedasername on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:33PM (#25985236)
No, someone could own the entire float of Facebook shares, and Zuckerberg still has a majority of the voting rights.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by dragonwriter on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:42PM (#25985293)
That's about two classes of outstanding stock with different rights held by different group of stockholders, not about stock held by the issuing company.

That's not the hypothetical that was posed.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by stale2002 on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:50AM (#25986836)
So then you agree that there could be situations where only a couple percent of the ownership of a company is available on the market, and if you buy all of those shares, then you would not control the company?

As in, you agree than a couple insiders could control a large majority of a company, and that this percentages of the company would not be on the open market, and therefore even if you buy all of the shares that are available on the open market (and the definition that I am using would disclude these shares owned by these insiders), you would not control the company?

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by dragonwriter on Monday February 01, 2021 @05:36AM (#25987453)
> So then you agree that there could be situations where only a couple percent of the ownership of a company is available on the market, and if you buy all of those shares, then you would not control the company?

Sure, it's possible that at any given time people aren't offering to sell a majority of the voting power of stock, or (theoretically, at least) any voting stock at all (it's even possible that the only class of stock trading on the market is nonvoting; SNAP I think does that.)

I was taking issue with the particular claim, made twice in the direct chain of ancestry of this comment, that a company could simply hold the majority of it's voting stock itself, so that holding 100% of the shares not owned by the company would not give you control since the company itself (presumably, it's management) would exercise most of the voting rights. It doesn't work that way.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by ineedasername on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:12PM (#25985448)
Fair enough, but your comment wasn't phrased specific to that example, it was a general statement about owning 100% of outstanding shares: If you have 100% of the outstanding shares, you have 100% of the voting right

Let's chalk it up to a miscommunication.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by dragonwriter on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:17PM (#25985471)
“Outstanding shares” has a specific meaning: all authorized and issued non-treasury shares.

If you have 100% of them, you have all voting rights.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by VBprogrammer on Monday February 01, 2021 @04:39AM (#25987148)
I mean, this has to be true right? Otherwise the stock market doesn't function as shared ownership, it would be more like Kickstarter at scale with no recourse for failure to deliver.

Plenty of takeovers have been conducted on the open market, even without consent of the board, also known as a hostile takeover.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by sn_master on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:03AM (#25987918)
Class B shares with no voting rights have been a thing for a long time. When the US government bailed out the banks in 2008, they made sure to buy only Class B shares, so no one could claim the government nationalized the banks and put them under their control, rather they just injected capital.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/classbshares.asp

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by phyalow on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:16PM (#25985129)
You are both right, but you are missing the point. It is entirely possible for controlling interests to be held in other classes of shares (or even common), that is not counted in the FREE float available to trade.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by Ntrails on Sunday January 31, 2021 @05:21PM (#25983164)
Owning a controlling share, and owning company are not the same thing - even from a simple net worth point of view.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by Lazare on Sunday January 31, 2021 @07:11PM (#25984044)
There's some more info here: https://www.forbes.com/2006/08/25/naked-shorts-global-links-...

Global Links was trading around 10c a share with ~350 million shares, for a market cap of around $35 million. They implemented a 350:1 reverse share split, which in theory should have resulted in them having a stock price of $35, 1.1 million shares, and a market cap of around $35 million.

For some reason, it took longer for this to shake out than expected; in the immediate aftermath it was reported that enormous quantities of Global Links stock was still trading, and the share price had actually declined to a 8 cents.

Presumably, some systems were reporting "old" numbers (pre reverse split) and some "new" numbers (post reverse split), and I'm sure an enormous amount of confusion resulted. And it was at this point Simpson reckons he bought 1.2 million shares for a bit over $5,000.

That's less than 1/3 of a cent per share, which seems wildly off (the share price was 10 cents pre reverse split, and would have been expected to be $35 afterwards), but given that it seems a lot of computer systems were not handling this correctly, who knows what he was told by his broker?

So...obviously Simpson did not purchase 110% of a company, and he definitely didn't do so for 0.01% of its market cap. I rather assume his broker had told him that he had done so, but that seems like fodder for a lawsuit between him and his broker over their buggy systems, but it doesn't tell us much else. It's possible he might have ended up owning 3.6k shares (about 1/3 of a percent of the company), but even that seems doubtful if it actually only cost him $5k.

Anyhow:

> I think the more interesting part of the story (if I'm reading it right) is he paid $5000 to completely own a company with millions in assets.

I think the better reading of that is some guy found a bug in a broker's system that caused it to tell him he'd done that, but it would have been obvious to all concerned that whether he'd ended up with 0 shares, ~140 shares, or ~3.5k shares, he definitely didn't have 1.2m shares, since they never even existed.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by phlo on Monday February 01, 2021 @06:32AM (#25987735)
Just looking at the numbers here, this could just be a case of a sign getting flipped somewhere along the way.

Global Links intends to do a reverse split, replacing 350 old shares (worth 10¢ each) with one new share (worth about $35). For the sake of argument, let's say they mixed up the ratio in their split filing. Instead of doing a reverse split, they do a forward split, replacing each share of old stock (10¢) with 350 shares of new stock (about one third of a cent, each). The shares trade at a somewhat high volume, because each share is worth a fraction of a cent.

Simpson notices that, after a 350:1 reverse split, Global Links ought to have about 1M shares outstanding.¹ He also notices that the current trading price is a fraction of a cent. Small enough to make this a worthwhile experiment. He acquires about 1.2M shares without moving the price too much. He also doesn't question how this was possible to happen within a day or two.

After the split, Global Links has some 100B shares outstanding. Simpson's position of 1.2M is less than one percent of that, so the shares continue trading as before.

¹ He might be combining multiple sources of information here. Perhaps his brokerage doesn't show reference data, so he combines the price he sees in his brokerage's app with reference data from Yahoo!finance or something.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by Lazare on Monday February 01, 2021 @09:00AM (#25988722)
Yes, that's a good observation.
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by njharman on Sunday January 31, 2021 @05:01PM (#25982973)
> own a company

No "owned the publicly traded shares of a company". Those shares are almost certainly non-ownership, voting shares. And if they are it's possible/probable that founders/investors/others hold an arbitrarily large multiple of traded shares or options for shares or convertible bonds or whatever.

What he owns is (somewhere in the line of creditors) the right to some part of assets if it's dissolved (sold, enters bankruptcy) exact triggers and rights are complex and varied.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by psychlops on Sunday January 31, 2021 @05:04PM (#25982995)
> What he owns is (somewhere in the line of creditors) the right to some part of assets if it's dissolved (sold, enters bankruptcy) exact triggers and rights are complex and varied.

After all liabilities are deducted. Which usually means nothing.

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by FabHK on Sunday January 31, 2021 @06:43PM (#25983826)
He owned the equity, and therefore theoretically had control over its management. The firm might still have a lot of debt, so be owned largely by banks (or bond holders).

Firm value = equity ("market cap") + debt + various, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_value

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by caminante on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:05PM (#25984814)
> He owned the equity, and therefore theoretically had control over its management.

Except, for example, if there were different share classes with voting rights or if the "float" is small [0].

[0] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/030703.asp

Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by m3kw9 on Sunday January 31, 2021 @07:33PM (#25984203)
Outstanding vs float will tell you this may not be be possible
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by pantalaimon on Sunday January 31, 2021 @04:44PM (#25982851)
is that really how it works?
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by londons_explore on Sunday January 31, 2021 @04:47PM (#25982872)
Yes, but it's possible the company also had a bigger debt than assets and no hope of turning things around...
Re:Naked shorting: The curious incident of the shares that d... by VBprogrammer on Sunday January 31, 2021 @04:46PM (#25982866)
Unless there was something fishy about the share classes. Non-voting shares perhaps?