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Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by m12k on Saturday January 30, 2021 @02:56AM (#25967204)
Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already?

Sure, they built the phones, doesn't mean we can't demand more rights than they decide it's profitable to give us (or put another way, just because the king's ancestors founded the country doesn't mean we shouldn't demand freedom and democracy).

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by pdkl95 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @05:57AM (#25968081)
These tech monopolies were built on adversarial interoperability! IBM made their "PC", but a lot of Silicon Valley's growth in the 80s and 90s happened because businesses had the freedom to innovate adversarially, creating the IBM PC clone.

As Cory Doctorow recently explained[1]:

>> It's how we got Gateway, Dell, Compaq and all of the other PC vendors that might have sold you that IBM PC clone in 1984 running an operating system that IBM hadn't made, on phone lines that had been broken up from AT&T.

>> And so it felt in those days like maybe we'd found some kind of perfect market, a market where you could make your products with low capital, just with the sweat of your own mind, by writing code. That you could access the global audience of everyone who might want to run that code over a low cost universal network. And that that audience could switch to your product at a very low cost, because you could always write the code that it would take to to port the old data formats and to connect the old services to your new product. It was a market where the best ideas would turn into companies that would find customers and change the world.

>> as these companies acquired new monopolies, they diverted their monopoly rents to foreclosing on competitive compatibility.

When talking about monopoly, people tend to focus on price, but modern tech monopolies don't need to use traditional form of rent seeking. Exploitative prices don't make sense when the monopolist undermines the entire market with "free services". Instead, tech monopolies are about control of what is allowed to participate in the market.

[1] https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-11337-what_the_cyberoptimists_got...

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by danieldisu on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:15AM (#25967570)
It's amazing that bureaucrats fined Microsoft for putting IE as default and keep allowing apple to do what they want. Europe should force these companies to allow users to install any software they want in their devices as long as it is legal...
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Veen on Saturday January 30, 2021 @05:02AM (#25967805)
> It's amazing that bureaucrats fined Microsoft for putting IE as default and keep allowing apple to do what they want.

The difference is that Microsoft attempted to use its operating system monopoly to win the browser wars. Bundling Internet Explorer with Windows made it difficult for other browsers to compete on an even playing field.

Apple doesn't have an operating system monopoly on the desktop or mobile. MacOS and iOS have a smaller userbase than both of their main competitors. It doesn't have an app store monopoly either.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by xenophonB on Saturday January 30, 2021 @11:06AM (#25970135)
Sorry but a duopoly is little different than a monopoly functionally.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by brokenmachine on Monday February 01, 2021 @11:08PM (#25997341)
>MacOS and iOS have a smaller userbase than both of their main competitors. It doesn't have an app store monopoly either.

I don't have an iphone, but don't you have to jailbreak it to install any software not blessed by Apple? That sounds like a monopoly to me.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @03:49AM (#25967436)
>Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already?

Agreed, but then Apple/Google and the fans of their walled gardens will argue that without this heavy censorship, grandma will install some malware on her phone that will empty her bank account or that their kids will install some malware that will spy on them (other than the social media apps that already do that).

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by echelon on Saturday January 30, 2021 @03:59AM (#25967474)
You don't even need to bring grandma into it. They like it themselves.

There is an entire population of humans that hypes companies, franchises, celebrities, etc. and treats them like a member of their own family. With a fondness. And a desire to defend their selection.

There's a technical means to lock down grandma and the kids. Fans are quick to dismiss it and shift the conversation back to why their choice is great.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by feanaro on Saturday January 30, 2021 @03:09AM (#25967273)
And while we're at it, let's disallow Google from mandating the exclusive use of their own service for push notifications.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by ufmace on Saturday January 30, 2021 @02:31PM (#25972148)
Fat chance. Have you seen the way politics is going these days? It's far more likely that they'll pass legislation to do the opposite - bar anyone from making, using, or distributing a communication system that can't be monitored and censored by Trusted Authorities.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by dexen on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:12AM (#25968768)
Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already?

No, we can't solve the problem that way: the very same problem wound remain: EU and 5/9 Eyes want e2ee backdoored or gone. If you start legislating which apps are allowed, you're putting yourself even more at mercy of gov regulation.

And the regulation would be blanket, with little to no way of sorting things out through unofficial channels as it can be done with Google. It'd be "backdoor or jail", not even sideloading apps to help you.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by xenophonB on Saturday January 30, 2021 @11:09AM (#25970172)
They can't practically do that, you're just making up a course of events that can't happen (people can develop things anonymously and be paid anonymously, and it's absolute nonsense to say that governments are going to be arresting the general public for the "crime" of privacy.

And in America at least it's almost certainly unconstitutional.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Yoric on Saturday January 30, 2021 @03:18AM (#25967322)
We tried.

- The FirefoxOS team.

- The Jolia team.

- The UbuntuPhone team.

- ...

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Shared404 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:12AM (#25967554)
I'm optimistic that PinePhone may finally be the one to do it, at least to an extent that it's usable if you're willing to hack on it.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by oji0hub on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:44AM (#25967718)
> usable if you're willing to hack on it

Most people need things just work.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by awwaiid on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:24AM (#25968840)
An important lesson from my openmoko days - "sorry I didn't get your call sweetie, see I needed a new video driver for my window manager animations so I recompiled my kernel and that broke the modem..." ....... turns out to not be a good excuse for missing significant-others calls on a regular basis!
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Shared404 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:53AM (#25967759)
I concur. But if we have a platform that is actually suitable for the community to work on, we can get to that point.

Much like Ubuntu made desktop Linux a viable prospect for many people, after being enabled by Debian, I could see a future libre smartphone being enabled by the work done on PinePhone.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by oji0hub on Saturday January 30, 2021 @05:01AM (#25967802)
Well maybe, but even Ubuntu / Debian aren't workable for most people. I've used Linux and FreeBSD since the 90s and I'm still pleasantly surprised when my printer works out of the box.

They're great for developers, but they've been unable to provide a usable and simple alternative for most people. Imo, partly because a lack of incentives since developers tend to create for themselves. Partly due to fragmentation leading to projects moving in every direction at the same time, which does not lead to a consistent or simple user experience.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by julienfr112 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @05:19AM (#25967877)
Actually Ubuntu is not less usable than Windows 10. Ex on intel NUC - wifi on Ubuntu : out of box - wifi on windows : plug ethernet, install driver manually. Old printers works better on Linux, eg when driver do not work on windows 10. Libre Office outof box, Office : where is my key ? ...
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by hutzlibu on Saturday January 30, 2021 @06:11AM (#25968151)
"Actually Ubuntu is not less usable than Windows 10."

For you and me maybe. But don't expect other people to have your standard of software choices etc.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Ericson2314 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @11:26AM (#25970349)
The problem is Ubuntu, but that consumers have migrated from desktops/laptops to Phones. (Bad for Linux, and bad for society as it's much easier to be a non-passitive participant on a desktop/laptop.)
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by seniorivn on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:23PM (#25970904)
for most people app selection on ubuntu is big enough to never need anything more only professional/rare software sometimes has no support/suitable alternative
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by oji0hub on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:28AM (#25968534)
- Can I install my "favourite program" on Linux?

Well sure, it's supported on X, Y and Z!

- Oh but I'm on distro A.

Oh sorry, that's not supported. But here's a post by some guy on some forum who says he made it work by doing a bunch of complicated things no one understands.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Macha on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:09AM (#25968753)
We're talking about Ubuntu. Distro X is always Ubuntu. Y and Z are usually picked from Debian, Red Hat, Fedora and Arch
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by m4rtink on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:42AM (#25968973)
This is often no longer an issue thanks to Flatpak & Steam Proton built-in Windows emulation.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Shared404 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:20PM (#25970874)
In addition, there's a significant subset of people who's only program they use is a web browser.

This is obviously quite doable with basically any distro.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by m4rtink on Saturday January 30, 2021 @02:37PM (#25972202)
Yes, while this has issues of its own (as long as the web services they are using are centralized and corporate controlled) I have observed the less technical users I have been helping with computer issues are totally happy as long as they sit in front of a computer with a web browser, where they can log in to their online accounts and get going.

Some might want a full mail client and possibly a printer configured and that's about it.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by neop1x on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:13AM (#25968769)
When I am purchasing HW peripherals, I always check Linux support in advance. Since I started doing that, I had zero compatibility problems.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by Ericson2314 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @11:26AM (#25970340)
The problem with Desktop Linux was by the time it got better, regular people spent too much time on phones and not enough time on laptops/desktops.

But I can't really imagine phones going away that fast---what, we all get some Uber regulated neural thing? I think the tech companies are too unpopular for that---and so I think PinePhone can catch up. Plus, the Duopoly is way more annoying for regular users than Windows ever was.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by swebs on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:35AM (#25968570)
It probably won't. I love my Pinephone just like I love desktop Linux, and both are great choices for people who keep up with tech, but neither will reach more than a few percentage points of marketshare without a $100m+ marketing push. They would need the help of some tech philanthropist to make it to the mainstream.
Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by eeZah7Ux on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:26AM (#25968513)
Those were pretty poor attempts: corporate driven and not very cooperative.

Since PinePhone became available, Linux distributions made huge leaps forward - Debian/Mobian especially.

Re:Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play ... by m4rtink on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:40AM (#25968958)
If you mean Jolla, that's still a thing - I (and many of my friends) run official supported Sailfish OS on Xperia hardware:

https://jolla.com/sailfishx/

And there are community maintained builds for the PinePhone and many other devices.