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Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by marcinzm on Friday January 29, 2021 @04:43PM (#25963039)
In the age of the internet (well 30+ years into it even) thinking that digital funds can be transferred instantly seems a pretty sane assumption.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by ur-whale on Friday January 29, 2021 @04:56PM (#25963204)
It isn't.

Settlement is complicated business.

Complicated enough that it took the invention of Bitcoin to take it out of the bankers hands and move it to the digital realm.

And even then, it was not instantaneous (10mn) until layer two solutions appeared.

Thinking that "money can be transferred instantaneously because digital" is not a reasonable assumption.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by Alupis on Friday January 29, 2021 @04:59PM (#25963245)
Just like with Tesla's AutoPilot, naming does matter.

If you tell people your car has AutoPilot, what would a reasonable person assume? It can drive itself! And they did, and people have died.

When RH tells Average Joe that the funds are "Instantly" available... that does indeed mean instant to most people.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by fastball on Friday January 29, 2021 @06:41PM (#25964355)
Poor analogy.

"Autopilot" comes from airplanes, where all it has done historically is "keep the plane going in a straight line".

In contrast, Tesla's AutoPilot can do much more.

Notably as well with autopilot in airplanes is that the pilot should always be in the cockpit, ready to take over... just like in a Tesla.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by mod on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:57AM (#25966625)
Notably absent here is the fact that planes can land themselves. In fact the plane can do everything on its own besides taxi on the runway and takeoff...most of the time. Yes, pilots are there to take over if needed, but that doesn't change the reality of autopilot which is not just "keep it in a straight line"
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by Alupis on Friday January 29, 2021 @07:29PM (#25964696)
You sound like someone educated about aviation - Average Joe is not.

To Average Joe, "Autopilot" means it flies/drives itself.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by fastball on Friday January 29, 2021 @07:31PM (#25964708)
Average Joe knows that planes have autopilot... that's where Average Joe heard the term first.

Do you really think Average Joe also thinks that planes entirely fly themselves and that pilots are just window-dressing?

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by Alupis on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:00PM (#25964897)
Hang out in the Aviation StackExchange long enough and you'll see exactly that question come up. "Why do we even still have pilots?", or "What does a pilot actually do?".

Yes, in general, people are ignorant of what pilots do and what AutoPilot can and cannot do.

This is made even more confusing by recent progress in autopilot with some large jets getting auto-landing features.

And yes... a pilot can program the FMS with waypoints, altitudes, etc, get into the air, push a button... and the plane will indeed fly itself. Modern jets even have automatic throttle/power control too.

A better name for Tesla's system is what it actually is... Driver Asist. But that's not sexy... and we're far off into the weeds.

"Instant" means instant. There is no way to paint it differently.

It's disingenuous to call an ACH transfer "instant" instead of "It'll take several days during which time we'll lend you money", like RH did here.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by harikb on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:20PM (#25963486)
"15 minutes" to settle cash for next trade is enough "instant" for most traders I think. The part that irritates people is the "2 business days" problem in the regular account.

I have heard it is complicated, but can someone elaborate the "computing cost" of a regular (non-coin) digital transfer?

Btw, transfers within 15 minutes are being done all over the world without the fancy blockchain and coin. I do understand the need for some transfers to be delayed , say liquidating all of one's investment to take a few days just for security reasons.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by ur-whale on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:24PM (#25963528)
>can someone elaborate

Well there's - for starters - :

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/counterpartyrisk.asp

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by freeone3000 on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:22PM (#25965380)
All of that risk is associated with holding the goods and currency for this delayed period! It all makes sense, but, if ACH was 10 minutes instead of two days, the entire issue would barely matter.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by kllrnohj on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:40PM (#25963737)
> Complicated enough that it took the invention of Bitcoin to take it out of the bankers hands and move it to the digital realm.

That's not at all what bitcoin does or helps with.

Settlement is not complicated. ACH is complicated, but ACH isn't just settlement. Bank to bank wire transfers are just settlement, and are regularly same-day (even same-hour) with immediate fund availability.

Hell, FedWire has been doing real-time near-instant moving of money between accounts since 1920 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedwire

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by lupire on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:35PM (#25965124)
Imagine if making a bank transfer was as east as sending a spam email.

FedWire works because those banks work very hard to trust each other.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by adamjb on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:05PM (#25965283)
Europeans and Australians [0] don't have to imagine. I can literally do a bank transfer to an email address.

[0] non-exhaustive list

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by throwaheyy on Friday January 29, 2021 @11:23PM (#25966017)
That’s not the same as what parent comment was suggesting. You can’t send money to literally anyone using only an email address. You and the recipient still have to have regular bank accounts within the settlement system. The email address only serves as a more friendly identifier than the account number.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by adamjb on Saturday January 30, 2021 @02:38AM (#25967121)
I should've been clearer: as long as the recipient has linked their email and/or mobile to their account (via PayID) settlement is instant and their email/mobile number can be used to address transfers
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by fastball on Friday January 29, 2021 @04:58PM (#25963233)
In the UK bank transfers are instant.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by ur-whale on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:07PM (#25963334)
They very likely aren't. They just appear to be to the retail crowd.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by marcinzm on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:09PM (#25963361)
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by ur-whale on Friday January 29, 2021 @05:22PM (#25963504)
There is precious little explanation in the article you cite on how this is actually implemented on the back-end.

Banking plumbing is notoriously harder than most folks realize, and I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't very hard (and very small) limits to how big of an amount / how many TPS you can actually execute with this system.

I might be wrong, but I'd be surprised if you could move 10M pounds instantaneously with this.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by fastball on Friday January 29, 2021 @06:44PM (#25964378)
Stop moving the goalposts.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by tonfa on Friday January 29, 2021 @06:02PM (#25963978)
Got curious, for SEPA there's next day settlement and 1B EUR limit.

The instant SEPA transfers have a 100k limit.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by namibj on Friday January 29, 2021 @06:43PM (#25964368)
My understanding is that this is due to instant SEPA blocking chargebacks to some extend.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by manquer on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:43AM (#25966550)
In a lot of countries bank transfer is near real time. Chip and pin is the standard for more than a decade. Checks are no longer al primary way to pay anymore.

U.S. banks are very much lagging in technology

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by brown9-2 on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:34PM (#25965120)
Why? What service actually transfers your money instantly? None does.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by zepolen on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:41PM (#25965165)
Cryptocurrency.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by serf on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:13PM (#25965656)
which ones?

btc transfers are pretty far from instant, by design.

Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by zepolen on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:44PM (#26106882)
Nano. Feeless, instant and energy efficient.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by thinkmassive on Friday January 29, 2021 @11:48PM (#25966193)
On chain, sure, but Lightning is pretty close to instant
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by Vecr on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:11PM (#25970785)
Yeah, but with lightning you really need enough value along the network path(s) to execute a transaction, possibly causing a similar thing as this to happen. I still think it would be an improvement though, as enthusiastic buyers could expand the network and get their buys through.
Re:Robinhood denies claims that it sold GameStop shares out ... by ric2b on Sunday January 31, 2021 @12:56PM (#25980846)
> Yeah, but with lightning you really need enough value along the network path(s) to execute a transaction, possibly causing a similar thing as this to happen.

It's atomic, it either completes 100% or it fails, there's no partial state where the money gets stuck in one of the middle-nodes.