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Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by fastball on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:58PM (#25951346)
I don't think your take stands up to very much scrutiny at all.

If this is about people trading on RH on margin, then just... stop allowing people to use margin to trade GME etc. "If you wanna buy GME you gotta have the cash in your account to cover it".

Problem solved and you don't need to prevent people from buying a stock they want to buy.

RH users are the product, not the customer. Why in the world would you expect RH to act in the interest of their users over the people that actually pay them, e.g. market makers like Citadel?

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by Traster on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:11PM (#25951510)
This isn't just about margin, absolutely, this is about all sorts of order flow agreements, credit lines and clearing agreements that break down when your entire customer base has decided they all want to go long the same incredibly volatile stock at the same time.

>"If you wanna buy GME you gotta have the cash in your account to cover it".

That's great, but that isn't the only relationship in this agreement, RH has agreements with its brokers about capital requirements. It's fairly likely that the attitude of "You need to have cash on hand for everything" basically means "You're done". That's the entire point of these risk management strategies - you are covered for what might reasonably happen so that you're making efficient use of capital.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by dalbasal on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:35PM (#25951864)
Could be all sorts of things. The simple fact is that market makers are being protected against long tail risk while retail investors are being denied long term returns... the very thing they are being paid to do. That's what these put contracts are: long tail risk. They sold an option. Limited risk for long tail risk...

What you are saying amounts to "when long tail stuff happens," order flow agreements, credit lines and clearing agreements that break down."

This, very directly insulates them (Citadel, other contract originators, RH) from the actual risk they are supposedly being paid for. It's also ostensibly the reason why retail investors can't have access to the same vehicles as financial firms. Retail investors can't reliably back that long term risk. Here is yet another example of loss limits for insiders.

No one is saying that you are not right. You are. The contractual complex does melt down at this point. The rage is people who think this is not ok.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by kryogen1c on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:33PM (#25952971)
> retail investors are being denied long term returns

excuse me? what part of inflating GME to $400 is a deserved long term return?

this is effectively a pump and dump scheme, whether or not most of the participants think so. once the squeeze stops, no ones buying GME over $100 and everyone left holding shares better have bought two weeks ago or theyre gonna lose money.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by dalbasal on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:57PM (#25953178)
I never said "deserved long term return." I'm saying that a hedge funds made bets, deals, ultimately with these WSB crazies. That position represents risks that they are being shielded from.

Most of these people aren't holding any stocks. They're buying derivatives, so they technically have no stocks to dump. They will likely bet like crazy on the downward part too.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by cma on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:42PM (#25953573)
But if Robinhood has some preexisting deal where they have to loan out X% of long shares to shorters, why should they have to take on the risk of defunct shorters if it is within their rights to just stop allowing trades in the symbol, without any goal of overall price manipulation?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by yudlejoza on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:08PM (#25952177)
> This isn't just about margin, absolutely, this is about all sorts of order flow agreements, credit lines and clearing agreements that break down when your entire customer base has decided they all want to go long the same incredibly volatile stock at the same time.

In other words, the situation is "too complicated," and the only solution is that the not-rich person should not do what they're doing with GME right now.

Got it.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by andy_ppp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:28PM (#25951775)
If this is true Robinhood should be explaining this to their customers. The silence for me is deafening and indicative that something more sinister is happening.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by jonp888 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:32PM (#25951823)
They have. There is no silence. They made a blog post saying pretty much exactly this: https://blog.robinhood.com/news/2021/1/28/an-update-on-marke... - they had capital and deposit obligations which they couldn't meet due to volatility, but having sorted this out they can resume trding.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by DangitBobby on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:23PM (#25952864)
Their first statement was nothing like that [1]. Why do we choose to believe the second thing over the first thing? Because it makes them look better?

1. https://blog.robinhood.com/news/2021/1/28/keeping-customers-...

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by XorNot on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:32PM (#25951824)
It's likely both are true and that's the point: RH definitely will have some actual contractual and legal concerns... But how they react to that is almost certainly bring governed by whatever would help Citadel's other investments the most.

Any good lie is based on some truth. That veneer of plausibility makes everyone else carry your water for free.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by coliveira on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:36PM (#25951876)
The whole point is that these Wall Street companies enter into agreements that they don't want to disclose to their customers. This is just a small example.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by LatteLazy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:34PM (#25951851)
Sorry to pile on but...

What issues does it create if your whole client base suddenly want to buy GME?

I guess if volumes overall go up a lot, you might need to post more capital? But since your revenue should be up too, that's a good thing right? And its only for a while, I don't think anyone thinks this will go on for months do they?

And surely it's easier for your clearing house to clear 1 name than 10,000 names?

For no-frills, long, equity positions, it feels like it should be the easiest thing in the world to do. I'm happy to be corrected, I'm aware back office logistics is a dark art so maybe I and other readers can learn something?

Edit: I'm honestly not trying to be snarky here. I just don't get why it would be that big of a problem. I'd be happy to be rescued from my ignorance.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by sroussey on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:40PM (#25951913)
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by LatteLazy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:54PM (#25952046)
This whole thing is a confusing mess. Do you know why Apex Holdings decided that? Why would a clearing firm do that, they're at no risk afaik...
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by saddlerustle on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:52PM (#25952593)
Almost all US equities are settled by DTC. Settlement is not clearing, clearing firms still have obligations to DTC
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by LatteLazy on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:14AM (#25958023)
Thanks, but I'm still left wondering: why would dtc be unable to settle those trades? It seems like it would be easier for dtc to settle RobinHood trades if they were all (worst case) in one symbol than it is when clients trade 101 different names...
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by pgsimp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:34PM (#25951849)
I don't understand what you mean? Somebody offers to sell the stock for X, somebody else (with the money stored on the stock exchange) offers the buy for the price X. Person A gets the money, person B gets the stock. That probably happens a billion times every day. Why should it make a difference which stock is being traded?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by imladyboy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:38PM (#25951896)
According to this interview[0], a similar firm's CEO is saying it's not that simple, and their clearing firm stopped the trades due to the costs

> Our clearing firm gave us a call and said we're going to have to stop allowing new opening positions... there is a two-day settlement between if you buy the stock today, those brokerage firms that you bought that stock on have to fund that trade with the clearing central house called DTC for two whole days... our clearing firm simply cannot afford the cost to settle those trades. We cannot use customer funds to front that cost due to regulation.

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/video/heres-why-robinhood-restrict...

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:38PM (#25951897)
I don't know anything about stock trading, but I think I can piece an idea from some HN comments I've seen earlier.

The exchange between A and B isn't direct, or instantaneous. The actual money transfer takes days, and there are parties in between that make it possible to pretend it's immediate - much like with insta-transfers of money between the banks. Apparently, these parties are on the hook for any money that is "in flight", so they need to have a substantial buffer.

Once you get this many people trading on a stock this volatile, apparently the buffer in the middle isn't sufficient to cover the risk, so the parties in the middle stop accepting these trades.

EDIT: 'imladyboy quotes the source from which I pieced most of the interpretation above. See also 'JumpCrisscross here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25951475.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by ABeeSea on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:39PM (#25951901)
Because the trade isn’t instant. It takes 2 days to settle the clearinghouse during which time RH has to put down cash as collateral that they won’t go bankrupt in those two days.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by sroussey on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:39PM (#25951909)
The clearinghouse for Public, for example, was the culprit:

https://twitter.com/public/status/1354826467184578571?s=21

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by PragmaticPulp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:39PM (#25951910)
> If this is about people trading on RH on margin, then just... stop allowing people to use margin to trade GME etc. "If you wanna buy GME you gotta have the cash in your account to cover it".

All Robinhood accounts default to Reg T margin accounts.

The entire UX is built around this idea that the margin is transparent to end users. How many Robinhood users are aware that when they open an account, transfer money, and buy stocks all in the same day they're actually buying on margin? The cash isn't in their account until the bank transfer settles.

Likewise, when Robinhood users hit sell and then use the funds to re-buy another stock or back into the same stock, they're buying on margin. Technically the first sell doesn't clear for several days, so the subsequent purchase is made on margin.

This frenzy surely pushed the limits of Robinhood's available credit lines to support all of this margin activity.

Meanwhile, clearinghouses everywhere are increasing collateral requirements for stocks like GME. If Robinhood was struggling to secure additional credit while also facing increased fees for trading stocks like GME, they may have had no choice but to either pause the entire platform (to avoid running afoul of SEC-mandated margin requirements) or pausing meme stocks while they figured out another solution.

> Why in the world would you expect RH to act in the interest of their users

If the whole platform blows up because they go insolvent, that's even worse for the users.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by rurp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:53PM (#25952596)
>How many Robinhood users are aware that when they open an account, transfer money, and buy stocks all in the same day they're actually buying on margin?

Maybe I'm out of touch but I would guess the answer is "most". Having to wait a couple days for money to clear after being transfered to a financial institution is extremely common.

When I first deposited on RH and saw that the money was available for trading immediately my first thought wasn't "Oh the money cleared instantly", rather it was "Wow, I'm surprised they're willing to take on that risk with new accounts". Turns out, maybe RH should have given that risk a little more thought.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by roywiggins on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:07PM (#25952726)
I would wager that the people who signed up for Robinhood this week were thinking "oh, sweet, they figured out how to let me fund an account fast, aren't apps great"
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by rfurmani on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:49AM (#25954488)
It’s not just about funding your account, it’s every single trade. When you sell a stock and then immediately buy another one, the cash from your sell doesn’t actually land for a few days.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by swimfar on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:14PM (#25952249)
"when Robinhood users hit sell and then use the funds to re-buy another stock or back into the same stock, they're buying on margin. Technically the first sell doesn't clear for several days, so the subsequent purchase is made on margin."

This seems like a key piece missing from lots of explanations I've read. Thanks.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by PragmaticPulp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:23PM (#25952338)
Robinhood has a little note during new account setup about how your account will default to being a margin account.

They don't show any of the details on the main screens after that, though.

Normally, it doesn't matter because Robinhood eats the tiny margin cost for the customer. They make up for it by selling the order flow. This only works as long as interest rates are low and, importantly, they can get enough credit to cover it all.

In times of unprecedented volatility and unprecedented risky trading behavior, securing that debt becomes non-trivial. Robinhood's debtors have no desire to be left holding the bag if something blows up.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by arcticbull on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:18PM (#25951616)
What do you plan to do about the options folks are holding?

When you buy a call option from a market maker, they buy shares to cover the delta. When the delta changes, they need to adjust their shares to avoid exposure. Certainly a large part of the price action here is a gamma squeeze, where WSB folks buy tons of OTM calls, which Citadel buys shares to cover, which pushes the price up, which in turn requires them to buy more.

Should they no longer be able to buy or sell options to ensure the solvency of their sellers?

I mean, it's totally reasonable to tell them they shouldn't have taken on that level of risk haha.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by refulgentis on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:12PM (#25951526)
His point stands, way too many people are talking way beyond their experience

In this case, the missing knowledge is that Robinhood is just another middleman: they're subject to margin calls and denials of credit just like Robinhood passed to you. Robinhood's credit facility was exceeded by the growth this week, and their credit provider was uncomfortable with "their" (really, Robinhood's clients) exposure if Gamestop collapsed.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by pedrocr on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:17PM (#25951594)
Could you explain what the problem would be then? What exposure would Robinhood and their credit provider have to a situation where a stock collapses that is being held long and not on margin by their clients? The client would definitely no longer be able to do a sell order that will get them any money, but what difference does that make to Robinhood?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by imladyboy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:21PM (#25951661)
I'm not an expert, but based on this link[0] from another comment section, a similar firm's CEO is saying the their clearing firm stopped the trades due to the costs

> Our clearing firm gave us a call and said we're going to have to stop allowing new opening positions... > there is a two-day settlement between if you buy the stock today, those brokerage firms that you bought that stock on have to fund that trade with the clearing central house called DTC for two whole days... > our clearing firm simply cannot afford the cost to settle those trades. We cannot use customer funds to front that cost due to regulation.

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/video/heres-why-robinhood-restrict...

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by refulgentis on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:24PM (#25951718)
Think of it more as systemic risk - I would say the general logic error I'm seeing on HN is assuming all assets on deposit are firewalled, have completely uncorrelated risks, are attributable to exactly one type of funding, either margin or deposit, and information is instantly communicated - in practice these are big messy orgs with big messy books, and the lender is looking at robinhood saying "you're asking for a historically high line of credit because you're on an exponential growth curve for users, whose assets are based on 1, generously 3, meme stocks? Let's try to figure something out here, we don't want you to shut down, but we need to mitigate risk"

People are expecting more a scenario in which clients stocks are neatly divided in two piles based on an unrelated criteria, i.e. if they are attributable to margin, or whatever assets you have on deposit. Additionally, the process of having margin is itself like having a credit line - AmEx simply doesn't have the systems or procedure to lower your credit limit because Tickle Me Elmo speculation is at a all time high over the last 72 hours, and it sees you're purchasing tickle me elmos, getting assigned a credit limit is a function of your credit score, and amex isn't tracking line item level purchases

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by endgame on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:21PM (#25951666)
What if we stopped building things out of infinite chains of middlemen?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by unityByFreedom on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:28PM (#25951768)
You need them to keep money flowing in your system. Like blood vessels. It's a network to keep capital flowing from those with money to loan to those who need to borrow. You don't want to put that responsibility on a single entity, that's a recipe for failure. It's better to spread risk by allowing some to succeed and others fail. There is added complexity and that's a feature, not a bug.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by xxpor on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:06PM (#25952156)
Why don't sales settle instantly? Or perhaps, why can't we do instant money transfers? It's 2021, not 1951.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by unityByFreedom on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:10PM (#25952201)
B/c fraud exists and people expect their money back when it happens. Yes it is 2021, not 1929. Credit and loans are a feature not a bug. If you want to put your life savings into a digital wallet go ahead. There's no protection when someone swipes it.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by fastball on Friday January 29, 2021 @02:17AM (#25954911)
This is effectively what blockchain is for.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by fastball on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:15PM (#25951571)
How exactly does halting buying on not margin decrease their exposure?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by adrr on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:29PM (#25951782)
Allows the trades to settle and the funds to move and RH can pay back their credit lines.